# Why do the Developers hate Highly Active Kingdoms at Maximum Capacity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Early Access Game Feedback\ **Created:** [August 22, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295 "2021-08-22T17:23:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/1 "2021-08-22T17:23:10Z")
I know what you are saying. You do a lot of Crests. You want to be in one of the highly active kingdoms and reap all the rich rewards that you would expect from being in a full group of like minded folk! Be careful what you wish for! Let’s look at the Kingdom benefits overall and the specific benefits to highly active Kingdoms at maximum capacity: - **Keys from Crests** - This is the benefit most people think of first. It sounds nice! A couple of extra Ruby Keys a week. But let’s take a look at the reward structure. You get the following keys at each of these total Kingdom Crest counts: - **Titles** Currently there are 3 Titles listed here along with their benefit: - **Kingdom Bazaar Deals** There are currently 3 Kingdom Bazaar Deals so let’s look at the benefits of each one separately: **Conclusion** All in all, players who are in highly active kingdoms at maximum capacity essentially get the benefit of additional keys (1-2 Ruby keys/week which is somewhat lessened as a benefit by the ability to buy as many additional Gold/Ruby keys as a player wants based on the expenditure of Honor) but **sacrifice 1-2 Ruby Chests / day** as well as limits on spending Ore on desired Shards due to high demand. That’s it. That’s all you get. Additionally, in the current game state, Ruby Chests are actually much harder to come by then Ruby Keys. Is it worth it then to be in a maximum capacity highly active kingdom? The answer is likely no .And that should concern developers because if your highly active players decide that the game is disadvantaged against them (look at the Relic situation as well), then they are likely to abandon the game and take their money and their advocacy with them. ---
**Author:** ![melonfresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@melonfresh](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/melonfresh)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/2 "2021-08-22T23:00:56Z")
As usual Sibelios, you manage to distill my feelings into a concise post detailing my exact feelings about an issue. Great post ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 2:55am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/3 "2021-08-25T02:55:25Z")
Another week of missed opportunities to spend Food and Ore for Kingdoms that are full with active members. Developers please advise. Did you intend the Kingdom member count to only be 15? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![GodlikeNay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/258eb7/32.png) [@GodlikeNay](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/GodlikeNay)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 4:24am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/4 "2021-08-25T04:24:00Z")
Let’s clarify that the problem is not that there is too much food. Cutting the food/ore supply in half in .36 didn’t address the core issues. ---
**Author:** ![Tacet](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/tacet/32/51_2.png) [@Tacet](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Tacet)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 7:54am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/5 "2021-08-25T07:54:23Z")
My guild sent a support ticket about a weird name in guild that is impossible to kick. It has been over 3 weeks and still nothing done about it. Also around 5 weeks with no update, nor update on the update. ---
**Author:** ![GodlikeNay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/258eb7/32.png) [@GodlikeNay](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/GodlikeNay)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 5:36am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/6 "2021-08-27T05:36:21Z")
Figured I’d drop this Kingdom related thought in this thread. Why not just get rid of the limit on Kingdom deal purchases all together? What is the point of limiting the deals that the Kingdom has worked to upgrade without providing some kind of control mechanism to Kingdom leaders that allows rationing? Seriously! Just drop the limit. It doesn’t make any sense. Keep the upgrade requirements. Those can grow with each level. That actually makes sense. The purchase limit doesn’t currently serve any purpose other than to sow discord in a Kingdom. Get rid of it. ---
**Author:** ![Tresk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@Tresk](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Tresk)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 11:02am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/7 "2021-08-27T11:02:57Z")
> [@GodlikeNay](#): > > Why not just get rid of the limit on Kingdom deal purchases all together? What is the point of limiting the deals that the Kingdom has worked to upgrade without providing some kind of control mechanism to Kingdom leaders that allows rationing? Seriously! Just drop the limit. It doesn’t make any sense. Keep the upgrade requirements. Those can grow with each level. That actually makes sense. The purchase limit doesn’t currently serve any purpose other than to sow discord in a Kingdom. Get rid of it. This needs to be put into a gold frame and hung in the dev offices! The limits are truly nonsensical. If they exist for some game economy reason, then put the limits on the individual PLAYERS. ---
**Author:** ![RubiconX](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/rubiconx/32/504_2.png) [@RubiconX](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/RubiconX)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 12:33pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/8 "2021-08-27T12:33:42Z")
> [@Tresk](#): > > This needs to be put into a gold frame and hung in the dev offices! Made me chuckle 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GodlikeNay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/258eb7/32.png) [@GodlikeNay](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/GodlikeNay)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/9 "2021-08-27T20:25:54Z")
> [@Tresk](#): > > If they exist for some game economy reason, then put the limits on the individual PLAYERS. That is the exact same conclusion that I came to. If, for some reason, they want to limit how many food purchases can be made, doing so with a flat 30 per Kingdom is probably the absolute worst way it could possibly be implemented from a user experience perspective. Unless they also coupled it with Kingdom management tools that allowed purchase rationing… but at that point, you’re getting back to per person limits anyways. So just implement it that way from the start if needed. I don’t think it is needed at all though. Food purchases ARE ALREADY LIMITED by Food availability itself, which is limited both by how much is possible to earn hourly and with a maximum storage capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/10 "2021-08-28T00:15:02Z")
The Kingdom issue is mainly a byproduct of neglect. They have adjusted elements of the economy and gameplay but entirely ignored adjustments or improvements to Kingdoms along the way. Literally nothing has been done to change the structure of rewards for Kingdoms since early access launch while numerous changes have occurred to the economy and the levels of the player base. I agree that one solution would be to take off the top cap of kingdom buys from Bazaars. The limit should exist based on the economic income (ore earned through play/miner, not arbitrary cap limits compressed against a 30-member kingdom) ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/11 "2021-09-05T00:23:45Z")
0.37 Update … Relief for kingdoms? Nope. Nothing. Nada. Also, now that Evolutions are even more of a possibility, the Ore Deal is in even higher demand and there’s not enough to go around for all interested members creating a situation that is even worse than before 0.37. ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/12 "2021-10-06T21:52:20Z")
Really hoping for something in the 0.38 update to improve quality of life (QoL) for active kingdoms. There is very little enthusiasm at this point amongst players about kingdom benefits due to absolute neglect. Player longevity in Gems of War and similar games owes a lot to the beneficial kingdom benefits based on total contributions by all members and a sense of camaraderie over goals like events and Guild Wars. Maybe some positive changes are just around the corner? Let me check in on the most recent updates from our neighborhood community voices: > [@Devs - what are you working on?](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/devs-what-are-you-working-on/1597/4): > > I can share that one of the things the teams is working on at the moment is improvements to Events & Challenge features. I did a keyword search for “kingdom”. No dice! ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/13 "2021-10-13T22:48:53Z")
The design is clearly wrong when the most competitive PVP action in the game is trying to spend food in the minute past reset. If you live in a time zone where reset falls while you are asleep don’t expect to ever get a food deal in even a mildly active kingdom. That highly active kingdoms seriously consider breaking off into small kingdoms just to be able to make use of their resources, and that has been the case for months now is really bad. Really hoping they have some major updates for kingdoms to encourage more active play within them and do it sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2021, 6:08am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/14 "2021-10-16T06:08:53Z")
Nearly two months since I posted this and 30 member kingdoms with active players continue to be harmed daily due to Food Deal and Ore Deal being capped limiting availability to members. The economics are so disfavorable to full kingdoms right now it’s especially discouraging, especially since there has been virtually no acknowledgement of the issue at all. Maybe there are changes forthcoming but in the absence of any communication whatsoever it leaves many players to question whether its worth continuing. ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2021, 5:23am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/15 "2021-10-27T05:23:15Z")
**0.38 UPDATE** So, no changes to kingdom structure, administration, rewards, or anything else in this update. Although I’m not surprised, it’s extremely disappointing. But that’s not even the worse part. This update now makes the Food Deal one of the most rewarding passive activities in the game and as I’ve discussed previously, full kingdoms with active players are essentially losing out on benefits enjoyed by smaller kingdoms **every day** because there’s simply not enough inventory for all. Take a look at this table (using Tier X Mark Loot chance probabilities): ![Event Marks Table](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/puzzlequest3/original/2X/8/84bd289bef82df6d49ec325c0b672699200af753.png) If a player does the Daily Siege and the Daily Dungeon with no gem spend, their expected Ruby Marks to be earned is ~60/week. If they invest in the first Dungeon cache regularly (table assumes no investment in Siege caches ever) then they can expect a weekly return of ~90; invest in the second Dungeon cache regularly, you can expect a weekly return of ~130. Recall these facts about the Food Deal: > [@Sibelios](#): > > The max Food Deal (Food Deal VII) allows you to spend 600 Food to receive 35 Ruby Marks which translates to 1 Ruby Chest when using earned Marks in the Shop. To repeat: 600 Food spent = 1 x Ruby Chest. How much Food can a player earn? A player with a maxed Brie at Epic level can earn 68 Food/hour or 1,632 Food/day. A player with a maxed Brie at Legendary level can earn 88 Food/hour or 2,112 Food/day. Given that many highly active guilds have players who have follower progression higher than the current model would assume but also taking into account that Crystals are much more obtainable now since 0.36, let’s split the difference and assume that the average player in a highly active guild could be earning as much as 1,900 Food/day. That’s enough purchasing power to buy 3x Food Deal daily. Essentially, 10 players can buy out the Food Deal every day. Obviously the translation of Marks to Chests has been negated by 0.38 but the fact remains that the progressed player (with currently maxed followers based on 5 playthroughs) can earn ~100 Ruby Marks / day from the Food Deal. _ **Over the course of a week that is ~700 Ruby Marks, or 5x the amount of Ruby Marks they would earn by playing Events every Day and spending 400 gems every 3 days.** _ This is highly beneficial and players would be foolish to pass it up. But that is what happens every day in full kingdoms; multiple players miss out on the opportunity to participate at all any while other players feast at the first available opportunity. These are the worst type of incentives and engenders ill will towards the overall game design. The fact that this was completely ignored as part of 0.38 update was an egregious oversight. P.S. please don’t ignore this post because you don’t like the title. ---
**Author:** ![Tresk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@Tresk](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Tresk)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2021, 1:04pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/16 "2021-10-27T13:04:55Z")
> [@Sibelios](#): > > multiple players miss out on the opportunity to participate at all any while other players feast at the first available opportunity. Yep! I have not had the opportunity to get even one food deal, for at least two months. The month before that I think I got 2. I had to give up trying, for my sanity. It wasn’t quite as big of a deal when I could just farm marks the old fashioned way. Now, everyone who takes more than one is essentially severely screwing someone else in the kingdom. KLs have absolutely no tools to prevent that. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2021, 1:38am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/17 "2021-10-29T01:38:46Z")
It’s disappointing to see we’ve gone yet another update with nothing being done to either improve kingdoms, or do anything about food. 0.35 food production was doubled. Bazaar deal sells out fast. Requests for alternate use for food. Atleast with this update and the change to followers people had followers to feed as they levelled - but a finite food sink. 0.36 - food production halved (returned to 0.34 levels). Bazaar deals sell out rapidly as many existing players have fully fed their followers. Request for alternate use for food. 0.37 - no change to food or bazaar. Bazaar sells out in minutes while most players in active kingdoms can do nothing with food - can’t use it, can’t sell it, can’t collect any more because it’s full. Requests for alternative uses for food continue to be ignored. 0.38 - nothing has changed. And while that focuses primarily on the food deal, Kingdoms are lacking just basic guild functions - we can’t see when a player was last online, can’t see who has contributed beyond crest count. Leaders have no controls to try and allow all members to help out or benefit from being in a kingdom that can sustain all the deals at their maximum level. ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/18 "2021-11-25T15:25:57Z")
> [@Sibelios](#): > > the fact remains that the progressed player (with currently maxed followers based on 5 playthroughs) can earn ~100 Ruby Marks / day from the Food Deal. _ **Over the course of a week that is ~700 Ruby Marks, or 5x the amount of Ruby Marks they would earn by playing Events every Day and spending 400 gems every 3 days.** _ This is highly beneficial and players would be foolish to pass it up. But that is what happens every day in full kingdoms; multiple players miss out on the opportunity to participate at all any while other players feast at the first available opportunity. Shortly after this post, we made a decision at Throne of Odin to deal with this issue by splitting the kingdom in two: ![Throne of Odin kingdom details](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/puzzlequest3/original/2X/a/a306fb9a15c979adb900ca116ae54474c505dafb.jpeg) ![Odin Taco Truck kingdom details](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/uploads/puzzlequest3/original/2X/b/b81082b1b2190804b50ced22468fc65c90e0cc5e.jpeg) Although it was a drastic step, I felt it was necessary so that our players weren’t penalized daily by the existing poor kingdom design. Keys are essentially pointless except to the newest players playing high daily hours, so the fact that the primary kingdom benefit lost in this decision is keys made it an easier choice. I am proud of our long-standing success as a kingdom so I hate that we will take a hit in total historical Kingdom Crests earned, but right now imo this is honestly the best result for all players involved. Perhaps if kingdoms every get reworked (bear in mind that even if something happens in 0.39, it will have been 9 months since kingdoms have been touched at all by the developer), we can remerge and continue on. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/mythos/32/338_2.png) [@Mythos](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Mythos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 11:59pm UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/19 "2021-11-25T23:59:11Z")
So in essence, this is a model in which all members get access to x2 food offers per day? Sounds like a great “solution” Without kingdom management tools - how is it working in practice? ---
**Author:** ![Sibelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/community.puzzlequest3.com/sibelios/32/2836_2.png) [@Sibelios](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/u/Sibelios)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 12:35am UTC](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295/20 "2021-11-26T00:35:49Z")
> [@Mythos](#): > > Without kingdom management tools - how is it working in practice? Thankfully virtually our entire roster is on Discord so it made the transition much easier. So far it’s working pretty well in practice. Ore Deal is maintained at V-VI for Greater Shards since you can buy Major Shards with the Ruby Marks. Honor Deal is essentially abandoned for the time being. [Next page](https://community.puzzlequest3.com/t/why-do-the-developers-hate-highly-active-kingdoms-at-maximum-capacity/1295.md?page=2)