Imperial deeds and glyphs are two completely different things. A player in GoW can still obtain and upgrade every troop/spell/weapon in the game without ever touching a single deed, but the situation in PQ3 is much different.
The average rate for glyphs right now are 2 or less per month. The amount of glyphs for maxed all followers without diverting any to equipment is 45.
This would put around a 2-3 year timer on maxing all followers. However, that SAME material is used for EVERYTHING. Weapons, equipment, pets, and spells. Not only this, but everything that isn’t a follower costs 2x as many glyphs to upgrade as followers.
One set of all mythics not counting pets but including followers, is a 2 year gap of no mythic equipment followed by 4 years. If a set of 24 pets are added to that for full chest cycle, that now takes 12 years to have 1 singular mythic for everything. That is 2x the time GoW has even existed, just for 1 mythic for every required thing in the game. That does not include trying to obtain everything in mythic, just one of the slots that can be used at any given time.
I highly doubt 6-12 years for 1 set of mythics is intended. Gems of War reaches a set of mythic in 1 month for active F2P players with 50-80% mythic completion with a year of active F2P.
As it stands now it is 2 years before anything other than followers can be upgraded, 6 years until 1 single set of mythics, and 12 years for one functioning set of equipment with one functioning set of pets. This also assumes a person would want to use the same exact spell build and equipment build for nearly 12 years, or at least 6 years.
Not really. Although they are not purely identical, they are more similar to each other than they are not.
Similar to GoW, it is technically possible to for a F2P player to obtain Mythic equipment just as much as a player can freely obtain Zuul’Goth, E.Kurandara, or the upcoming red-tier wolves. The process is very cumbersome and luck-based for F2P players, but it can happen.
Unlike GoW, PQ3 is going to start out of the gate with everything potentially red-tierable. It’s more than a likely coincidence that Mythic in this game is colored red and not cyan, despite using the same colors for the other rarities as GoW does.
Side note: This brings up an potentially interesting topic about what the differences are between a Legendary level 50 thing and a Mythic level 50 thing and whether the upgrade is worth the surely extravagant cost to do so. But, that’s completely off-topic to the discussion in this thread.
You’re seeing a problem. The devs are almost assuredly looking at this situation as a sales opportunity.
Keep in mind that PQ3 is being positioned as a live-service game and not a stand-alone game, like PQ1 and PQ2. Live-service games need recurring revenue streams to continue operations, and as such need to create “opportunities” such as the glyph situation to generate sales.
From that perspective, what is actually monetizable in this game right now? It turns out surprisingly few things. As far as the game’s systems are currently implemented, there are two sources of monetization, which ironically have their own section in the player’s wallet. They are fluxes and glyphs.
Fluxes are premium wildcard items designed to save players time in obtaining multiple copies of things for ascension. This is big, given the mind-melting number of copies of the same item one needs if attempting ascend an item to Mythic the F2P way.
Glyphs are simply time-gates to slow down player progression and to present sales opportunities for the game. A player’s first set of Mythics are going to be much more impactful than a player’s second or third set. Slowing down a player’s progression towards that first set completion (and potentially considering the game “finished” and leaving) is a likely objective here.
In there future, there’s always the potential for accelerated glyph drop rates, as power creep is a thing in live-service games. Out of the gate though? I don’t see it happening.
Since the update, it is worth mentioning that mythic runes/scrolls STILL drop way too frequently compared to glyphs even after the update. Only have 1 day’s of chests so far, but currently am 12 mythic runes/scrolls since the patch compared to 0 glyphs.
The big issue here is that MORE glyphs are needed now than mythic runes/scrolls. The glyph to mythic rune/scroll problem is somehow even worse in 0.35 than it was before.
There will be more ways to get Glyphs in an upcoming Update. (We are hoping this comes with 0.36, but I don’t want to confirm that for sure in case anything changes.) THis new way to get Glyphs will be the primary place they drop.
This is great to hear, but doesn’t change the fact that it is now more than 2x more expensive to use gems/money to obtain mythics. Daily shop price scaling for them is way out of proportion to what it should be.
31,500 gems for a mythic or $168 is quite over the top, not to mention that doesn’t even count the 4 mythic relics also needed, just the glyphs price.
The cost of the random epic weapon is doubled, and likely the armor one as well (never seen an random epic accessory offer roll in 0.34).
That’s $20-$25ish in premium currency for that offer. Far too rich for my blood, but I think I see where the devs are trying to go with these changes.
I think you might need some Salty translation services. Allow me to assist here.
Translation: The devs tend to install new game systems in layers. In 0.35, the update brought in the foundations of this new system. The devs are observing how we interact with these foundations and will adjust the system based on what they see. That’s likely going to take weeks of data collection and analysis before any changes are decided upon by the devs.
So, what is happening here in 0.35?
IMO, what players are observing right now is the F2P foundations of the new upgrading system, replacing the one in 0.34. The system is incomplete (obviously), because it is missing the portion that is likely to be monetized. The F2P portion of the system (IMO) is functionally complete, which is why it was released in 0.35.
The F2P portion of the upgrade system:
Relies very heavily on upgrading individual crafters/resource generators to their highest levels to allow access to high-level drops.
Requires multiple playthroughs on different classes to obtain enough Crystal currency to achieve high follower levels.
Will still be subject to the whims of RNG on Eveline to obtain enough Crystal currency to reach maximum levels on followers.
Is highly subject to the whims of RNG and low drop rates for upper-tier gear creation, once at high follower levels.
If a player wants to upgrade their existing equipment (a known thing not subject to RNG), there’s likely going to be a very steep cost (time and/or money wise) to do so to bypass the follower gacha rolls. The systems for how that is going to work (probably the Event system) is probably what 0.36 is going to be about, it seems.
So first, my comment was sarcasm, to be clear. I’m well aware of that systems are often incomplete when they are implemented but (IMO) you are putting an incredibly positive and quite frankly too generous gloss on what has been put forth to date and their thinking behind it.
For starters, the question is what function does gear play in the life cycle of the game. Is it supposed to be an item that you acquire and through long painstaking playtime investment develop into a personalized piece of gear that you keep at its highest rarity? or is gear more akin to a Diablo-style loot fest that you grab, upgrade, and then easily toss aside when a more attractive version of the piece comes along. Given the various Perks (I assume that’s what they are called, perhaps Affects) and Mastery associations that could possibly be on gear and (at least for now) the inability to change those, it’s quite possible that a player might evolve a piece of gear to Epic or beyond and be dissatisfied with the Perks or color and want to attempt to “improve” the gear by finding and evolving another. Under the prior system of requiring additional copies, that was theoretically a possibility but given the rarity of drops, it’s hard to get beyond Epic with any regularity so it would be an arduous process. On top of that the vault limitations made the possibility of hoarding gear in a Diablo like fashion virtually impossible. So what are the devs “telling” us about how they think gear should be interacted with in this current system iteration?
So according to @Cyrup, the previous system was creating difficulties for players in acquiring resources needed for upgrades and evolutions. In the previous system, many of us were able to do evolves from Rare to Epic but it was clear that it would be exponentially difficult to continue further evolves due to the rarity of drops and the limited vault space. Now I don’t know if my Cyrup translation services are working currently, but what I just read was that 0.35 has introduced a system that recognizes those challenges (“the problem is going to get worse”) and made “signficant changes”. So again, as I work on my ability to understand English, what previously existed was a system in which players were able to evolve some gear but with increasing difficulty at further rarities. In it’s place was put a system in which players literally can at the current time and foreseeably for the future have no expectation of evolving A SINGLE PIECE OF GEAR. How can that be? Wasn’t the system that was put into place supposed to be a response to the difficulties that players were facing in the matter of evolving gear? When you acknowledge these difficulties and say, we therefore have replaced that system with something else, is not the implication that you are improving the environment for the players?
@Lyrian you seem to be a knowledgeable individual and I respect what you post but honestly you are giving them too much credit. We were literally told:
So let’s see, using my English reading skills (regardless of the various translation services that I may or may not possess), the first listed means to acquire relics is by completing Dungeons. The second means is by salvage, which is a “small chance”. Additionally, “another primary way of obtaining Relics” is forthcoming. So! We can infer that completing dungeons is a “primary way” of obtaining relics. It was listed first! It can’t be salvage, that’s just a “small chance”. Clearly the Battle Pass is not a “primary way” of obtaining relics. So now, I, the player, am led to believe that the old system was too difficult, even though evolves were happening at earlier rarities, much less so at higher rarities. The new system is being implemented to address these difficulties. We are told that the new system utilizes Relics and the “primary way” to get Relics is by completing Dungeons. Hmmmm! I guess using my limited vocabulary set and reading comprehension I would infer that relics might have a similar frequency to gear drops that were needed in the old system. Or maybe they might have a similar frequency to scrolls/runes which are also needed in the evolution process and also drop with regularity from chests. But lo! instead, Relics appear to have a drop rate so low that after 5 days, we literally have just a handful of instances of their appearance. Now we know:
“Very Rare”! That’s certainly not what I expected of the drop rate of something that is a “primary way” to acquire something. Does that mean that the other “primary way” of acquiring Relics will also be “Very Rare”? and I think I agree with @Tacet here:
So here we are. I shouldn’t need a @Salty translation service when:
I think it’s fair to say that my ability to read and translate is working just fine. What is absent is the ability to communicate honestly about changes that are being made and how they will affect the player. I’m addressing this seriously because I often use humour to try to deflect from what otherwise would be a contentious response. But let this post be very clear. I’m not amused. And I don’t need a translator. I have 3 decades of experience in both project development, assurance, and as a game player. What I see is disappointing and quite frankly an embarrassment so far in terms of communication. It is early access; systems are going to be subject not just to change but to reimplementation; that is not unexpected. What is expected is that if you make significant changes that restructure entire elements of game play, that you be honest about how that will affect the player. At the end of the day they are trying to make a product that will in theory be financially viable using the mobile gacha model. I have no issue with that. But as a player, I should have some idea what my actions in the game will lead to. In the previous system I understood how to evolve items and what effort that would take. In the new system which was introduced to address “difficulties” I have absolutely no ability to know the level of effort required to evolve an item and from what has been communicated so far, no idea what that will look like in the future. That is not a failure of me to translate, that is a failure of design and communication.
The current system as described was put in place to fix a potentially broken system. With that being said, the broken system worked somewhat at least to epic rarity.
In the current system players cannot evolve past uncommon on equipment and spells. At least followers can be evolved which is a welcome and great change and I applaud that effort.
In the efforts to fix a mistake though, the devs have created an even worse system that is actively frustrating the player base. I have seen more salt in the last week then in the previous 2 months of gameplay.
Previously I at least felt like running a dungeon was making progress because I might get the piece of gear I needed to evolve my rare. Now I just hope for a better drop.
If you say so. Not sure how this is sarcasm, but I will take your word on it being just that .
IMO, it’s both. The investment in a single piece for the long term is going to the costlier option.
Why? Think of it like this from the devs’ side of table … if a player selectively targets and obtains the perfect pieces of armor early on in the game, what incentive is there for the player to chance newer and shinier things? There isn’t one, outside of being forced to create even more perfect versions of those same pieces of armor to incentivize the player to chase these things. The option will still be there, for sure. But, there will surely be a hefty price to pay to do so. The devs have to provide some incentive for players to chase random things instead of simply waiting out the next tier upgrade for those armor pieces in already in the players’ inventories.
Flip side of the coin… what I see is a community manager who is trying to tell us as much information as she can in a roundabout way about a topic where she appears to be currently not allowed to discuss that information publicly by her superiors for any number or reasons.
Don’t take your frustrations out on her. If she is not allowed to talk publicly about a topic in detail, she’s not going to do that, no matter what.
It is posts just like this one on why the devs stopped providing detailed information about game functionality in GoW publicly and often contributes to why Salty sometimes calls in sick to the weekly streams for mental health reasons. Frankly, I don’t blame her for that as I sure as heck would not want to get in front of a camera twice a week for an hour to get chewed out either.
While, yes, it would be nice to have a better explanation regarding what the long-term intentions for the changes in 0.35 are, hardcore venting at Salty is not going to get anyone any answers on the matter. Period, full stop. She’s already said that she wants to do a stream about the design decisions made for the game, and she’ll probably do that when she gets the green light from her superiors to do so.
Quite simply, I did not make this personal. As I noted on several occassions, I interfaced with the communications as a whole, the content of those communications. The communications are clearly lacking and if you think that they are not, then we have to disagree about what constitutes transparency and clarity. Making a joke about gathering data or saying that as a whole this has been a failure of communication and implementation is legitimate feedback. I did not attack anyone personally nor did I make hateful or obscene statements. I quite clearly documented why I thought the communications, again as a whole, were insufficiently substantial based on their own statements about reasons and transparency.
If you can’t see the difference between legitimate criticism in the face of clear community confusion and frustration and “hardcore venting at Salty”, then do me a favor in the future and don’t cherry pick quote me for your cheerleading responses.
EDIT: P.S. @Lyrian if you didn’t pick up on it, most of my “making it personal” was directed at you for your silly “here let me help you understand better with my Salty translation services”.
When the main way that these resources are dropped is introduced we will observe the data further. The best way to get them is tied into a feature that we are hoping releases with 0.36. (I can’t say more at this time, but I hope this sheds some light on the data we will be observing, and that there will be better ways to get Relics and Glyphs.)
For future reference, if I am not discussing something in greater detail it is because I cannot do so at the current time.
I also want to be clear that we are in early access. We are tweaking, changing, and experimenting with our systems to see what works best and suits the needs of the player, developer, and publisher. I cannot tell you with 100% certainty where something is going when we are still in the process of changing it and seeing how it works best. With our recent patch notes we included more information on why we made changes, and also briefly outlined what we would like to look into moving forward.
I understand that this might not be enough for everyone. If it isn’t, I apologise. At this time I cannot offer more insight, especially as we are in a state of flux (Flux? Get it? Sorry, bad resource joke) as we are still refining the game, and it isn’t in a finished state.
All that is well and good but the fact is that the notes were written in such a way that the average reader would think that Relics would be reasonably obtainable in the game state because the implication was that of the methods listed to obtain Relics, one of those methods was a “primary” source. The reality is different as you are clearly saying. So I think its a fair critique that the information released was misleading and I don’t think that any judgments that I have made to date are incorrect. Nothing that I have said has been contradicted.
With that said, I appreciate the response. Clearly, the “system” that you have rolled out in 0.35 with regard to evolutions is incomplete and currently disadvantages the player relative to the previous game state. Players will have to decide what their tolerance for these types of changes are as it is early access but even in early access players need an incentive to play, to continue to engage with content, and to provide feedback on that content. The system that was rolled out with regards to evolutions is currently the absence of content, not just in the short term but for as long as it takes for the next thing that you are hoping to release in 0.36. During that time, a core element of the game is functionally non-existent and the community has to keep engaging with that.
I look forward to continue to provide feedback as I have done to date, whether it is on bugs, content, or updates in an effort to help improve the game. As you said, the systems need to suit both the player, the developer, and the publisher. I will continue to be a voice for the player in this regards.
I understand your feedback, but I want to reiterate that this is not the intended primary source of Glyphs and Relics. Once the primary source is in game we can observe how players get these resources, and if it’s not enough we can then tweak either, or even both, the primary source and the chest drop.
I understand the drop is low now, but the drop is not our primary concern at this time, as we want to see how things go with the next update when the main source of these resources is introduced before changing the existing system. (Otherwise, what will likely happen is this… we change the drop rate for make players happy, new primary source of these resources is introduced and then players are getting too many too quickly, and we have to revert the drop rate to what it was, which will understandably upset players even further.)