45 Days Later ... Relic drop rates are absurdly low regardless what happens in 0.36

I have a decent amount if superior weapon shards from chests.

One thing I do feel is the primary way to get shards used to be drops, now it feels like the primary way is scrapping gear. So we are now scrapping to get .001 of a level of gear

I think I’m officially tired of beating this dead horse but a final thought on this, which still bothers me the most. Patch 0.35 was issued and there was tremendous emphasis in the developers’ language how they are listening to player feedback and that the changes were based on challenges players were facing. Additionally we were told this:

No one is lauding their transparency here. No one is confident about the direction of their development intent. This is why we all have to sit around and make guesses about what’s next and try to read the tea leaves about the developers’ direction because it certainly is not going to communicated to us. There is no doubt that the bulk of the implementations in 0.35 were about curbing game play progression, putting in place hard walls on player progress, and essentially buying time to continue to develop solutions to players “circumventing” the game’s core systems (which of course implies that the game’s core systems were and to a great degree still are fundamentally flawed since the players’ means by which they “circumvented” the system were to simply play the game).

There’s clearly a community effort here to provide feedback, identify bugs, address game play changes, and when necessary provide detailed responses to requests for more detail to assist the developers’ as they work towards bringing the game to launch. There has been tremendous goodwill demonstrated by players who genuinely wish success for the release of this game. And many of these players have plenty of experience with other games, including free-to-play (F2P) games and understand the necessity of balancing game play development for both the company and the players. I just hope that going forward the developers’ can recognize that and do a better job communicating their changes, for whomever it benefits, so that we as players can continue to play and interface with the game and provide feedback, instead of sitting around for weeks asking each other if we have gone insane because we don’t have a reliable way to judge what information has been communicated.

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slow…clap… You have nailed it, sir.

I am, or at least was, very excited about the potential of this game. It’s kinda sad that we testers (and that is what we are here, folks) are already getting the cone of silence.

TPTB… help us help YOU, by giving us clear, concise, ACCURATE, and timely information. It is absolutely ok to change it all, left and right, at this point. Just tell us the truth about how it is supposed to work at this very moment in time, and why.

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I asked for transparency multiple times around updates and changes that were not listed.

I don’t think transparency will happen. Only in word, maybe.

And yeah, all very good theories but also all stuff they could have been upfront about. “Hey folks, you progressed faster than we had anticipated and we need to look at balance and our concepts, we will therefore block further progression for a few weeks” - in think most of us would have been just fine with such a statement.

Again, all foreseeable from their side and poor treatment of the community in my opinion.

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I’m currently working with the team to get changes and fixes catalogued better in house so they don’t get missed in server push notes or patch notes. This is improving over time, and I’m sorry for anything that has slipped through the cracks in the past. I’m doing everything I can to get everything wrangled into one place, and for our changes to happen in batches so I can let you know several at a time.

I know there is frustration, but there’s no conspiracy. I’ve said several times that the main way to get glyphs and relics is coming. As the game is in early access all its features and resources are not yet available, and we weren’t able to bundle everything regarding these resources into one update. I apologise for any bad feelings this has provoked, but I can’t promise it won’t happen again. With development schedules and milestones in flux a similar situation may occur in future, though we will try to prevent it.

I am personally grateful for all the good will shown here, and meticulous bug reporting. Thank you.

On a final note I want to be clear on that fact that we will be making more changes moving forward, to every aspect of the game. I can’t tell you what all of these changes will be far in advance, and sometimes we have to make them quickly due to external influences. When they are made I will do everything in my power to ensure you know, by posting here and working on our internal processes to ensure nothing is missed. I may not always be able to tell you the exact reason something was changed, but I will always do my best to tell you when changes are made. And where possible I will shed light on what I can, in the capacity I am able too.

(Please also be aware that most of the time if I am not saying something it is because I can’t.)

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I appreciate your response and I do look forward to seeing the upcoming changes whatever they are. As I’ve noted, I think we all understand that changes are a way of life for early access and generally players are patient and understanding as updates are made.

I do take issue with this:

I challenge anyone to say that this description is not misleading about what to expect in terms of the anticipated means of Relic acquisition:

I’ve harped on this already but I think any rational reader of these notes would infer that Relics are themed around Dungeons; you collect Relics associated with Dungeons; and Dungeon completions would be a reasonable means to attain Relics. It’s fairly clear that there is no indication that the drop rate of relics from dungeons completions would ultimately be <0.1% which honestly I would say is generous. You are more likely to get a relic from salvaging than from Dungeon completions; there is absolutely no way that is clearly communicated here. Furthermore, (again as I have said before), saying that something is a means to acquire something but making the rate equivalent to finding a dollar on the street is unsatisfactory. Without this other “main way” of acquiring Relics, the existing ways are no means to acquire anything at all. It would take presumably months and months of gameplay to chance luckily upon 4 of anything of the right dungeon and rarity to do an evolve. Does your data differ? Share it, prove me wrong.

This is not true. Glyphs have not been easier to find unless you mean some increase in frequency in the shop. Does your data differ? Show us, prove me wrong. Also, there is no indication here in subtle text or otherwise about “another primary way” (I still love that phrase, a mastery of obfuscation) of getting Glyphs is forthcoming. Can we assume so? I guess, but that’s not what was communicated.

3 days after the release of the patch notes and a collective head scratching from players as they attempted to find Relics by completing dungeons, you chimed in with:

I think we are all glad that you provided that update (otherwise our brains probably would have melted out of desperation to understand what was going on) but it seems a pretty big thing to mention that the newly released items that were presented as a means to improve the evolve situation and that everyone of course will be looking for is actually something so rare that there literally is zero chance in the current framework of purposefully finding them. That would seem worth mentioning. Additionally, you indicate that they will be included in “more” Daily Deals. That would imply that they were included in Daily Deals, which is not mentioned in the patch notes as a means of obtaining Relics, and to the best of my knowledge is not true, since I don’t know of a single player who has seen a Relic in a daily deal.

At the same time you said this:

This was the first mention of this as I indicated above, but even if that is the case, it’s the same issue with Relics. This new means to collect Glyphs appears not to be “the primary place” but really the only place other than shop deals. You essentially confirmed this when you said:

So I think we can agree on this point that the patch notes were again misleading as they were very rare drops before 0.35 and they continue to be very rare drops after 0.35. I don’t exactly see how that was communicated well when the notes said “It is now easier to find Glyphs after level 45 in-game”.

8 days after the patch after much frustration from players about the state of drops with the 0.35 release, you provided the following update:

So at this point it is acknowledged the main issue that exists is not that players are frustrated that you haven’t sufficiently mentioned the existence of other means of acquiring Relics and Glyphs, but rather that the current means of acquiring Relics and Glyphs is so low as to prompt the growing volume of discontent across the player base. You suggest that any tweaks to the current drop rates is pointless because the focus is on the new content to be introduced in the future which is supposed to work in tandem with the current rates (see above on that synergy). Furthermore, instead of providing a bridge to the new content with increased drop rates of Relics and Glyphs to provide motivation for early access players to engage with content especially given the scope of the new updates and the time it would take to roll them out, out of concern for players being upset in the future, no bridge will be extended. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the degree of disappointment about the reduction of bridge rates would be slightly less than the level of frustration that exists currently.

So, again, I appreciate the response, but I am also disheartened that your takeaway from all of this was that the community felt you didn’t tell us often enough that “the main way to get glyphs and relics is coming”. What should have been said was that the only feasible way to get glyphs and relics is forthcoming and any attempt to acquire glyphs and relics currently is essentially fruitless and that evolutions are essentially on hold for a month+ as a result.

To be fair, I don’t think this is your fault. If I’m being completely honest, my impression is that you are often given partial information as well and it must be challenging that you have to try to explain things when it seems as if you are being treated by the developers as just a bit taller of a mushroom than us. I look forward to hearing more from you going forward and I want to end my post here to say that none of my comments are personal; it is all about process. I harbor no ill will, and I caution any player to be judicious in talking about these issues and to not make personal attacks or insults a part of the responses here, even out of frustration. I do, however, believe in holding people accountable.

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Well. Said.

No ill will but disillusioned. Great game. I really enjoy the gameplay.

I do have issues with being misled and I don’t even understand why that was necessary.

Fair, maybe Salty knows no more. But someone will, someone is coding the changes.

Or if community is not a relevant thing don’t start a forum to ask for players to discuss and play with open cards on what they find in the game.

Or I don’t know. I’m just sad about the way this went. For some reason as a long term gow player I had higher expectations I guess.

Oh well.

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In future I will update the patch notes, and try to ensure they include the information you want. There has been nothing intentional done here, and I don’t write them, but I can do what I can to read over them and suggest changes prior to release.

Outside of that I apologise that I cannot do more. You are welcome to feel the way you feel.

Once more, there will be a lot more big changes coming prior to release. The game is unfinished and will be in a period of flux until it is launched. If this is something that is difficult I understand, but I want to be realistic with everyone regarding the future.

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I feel like you didn’t disagree with anything I said.

I won’t be able to comment on this further, as I am not able to say more.

I have taken feedback on how you want us to communicate with you in future, and will do what I can to see that it happens. It won’t always be possible, but I can certainly try. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, merely stating that I can work on improving things. We didn’t purposefully bottleneck everything, and are currently experimenting with systems and analysing the data to get the game to where we, and our publishers, need to the game to be. There will be a lot more changes coming, new features, resource drop rates shifting, where resources drop potentially changing, weapon and spell reworks, balance changes, etc etc etc. Some may be small, others may be extreme, but they will happen and will affect the game. Some of these changes may seem too big until we review the data and get a chance to correct things, which is a common practice in early access games. The economy will see several more changes so we can have it working as best as possible before launch, as there is nothing worse than having a borked economy after early access. This is me doing my best to set expectations as we improve PQ3 and approach worldwide launch.

I won’t be posting in this thread further, but you are all welcome to continue the conversation as long as it remains civil and doesn’t violate community guidelines.

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I for one have not said anything incendiary. I did my best to document facts and provide observations about the quality of the efforts that supposedly are being proffered. You indicated that you would do more to communicate better. I think that’s laudable. I guess we will see.

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Thanks @Salty for clarifying what you could

With regard to clear communication - can we/you set or create a official response that identifies a question, issue, aspect of the game or economy where imposed communication restrictions mean it can not be answered further or expanded on more?
Kind of like how SoonTM is the answer in GoW for when is the next patch/release/update, but in this case more of a “here is all I can say on the subject.”
So perhaps something like NDA or No Further Comment (NFC) or End Of Information (EOI)

I see the benefit as being two-fold:

  1. You can answer as much as you can and then put a hard full stop on the answer (though the community can continue to discuss - much like you have just done here)
  2. the community will know that the issue has been acknowledged as heard - but also that we have all the answer/information we are going to get at that time
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Just a quick chime-in to say: my issue has never been with @Salty 's communications per se; it has always been with 0.35 as it was wholly communicated. If anything, @Salty is the one that provided clarity to issues but after the fact as I documented. And it was ultimately laid out that 0.35 was knowingly a half-implementation that resulted in a huge progress block, when it was sold as a series of player improvements.

I just don’t want this to get lost in the back and forth. For me, this was never orginally about @Salty’s subsequent-to-patch communications, although admittedly I have taken issue with certain things that were said. Just as she said, she didn’t write the patch notes. My criticism has always been with the developers.

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Lead developer will be on the dev stream this Wednesday.

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This may be a shock to hear, but I will be tuning in :innocent:

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As the most accessible person (to us) on the team, you are in the unenviable position of absorbing the slings and arrows. It can be difficult to not take that personally. We say “its not your fault”… but ya. It’s hard to manage an angry horde. I try to be cool, but just in case, I’ll try to be cooler. I hope the rest of the community will also.

The majority of the people communicating on this is are pretty savvy about this stuff. I myself did my first closed game beta in 1998. Open beta and early access are trickier because there are some folks expecting things to work and not change much. But most of us really do understand the whole “throw that out, lets try this!” thing. We do.

I know you aren’t responding further, but I hope you will read this and pass it on.

We do not need every piece of information. We need a ballpark idea of what to expect so that we can then tell you whether or not the expectations are playing out as designed. This where the uproar came from. We were told, and took it on good faith, what to expect. (With an ohhhhh soooo unfortunately timed missive, instructing us to admire the perfect patch notes :woman_facepalming:) It sooooo didn’t happen. So we, the unpaid (but having some fun!) testers, had to assume it was a bug. Then we were post hoc informed that it is all intended. So so SO preventable!

You absolutely do not have to tell us everything. But just make sure everything you DO tell us is absolutely true for THAT build. We know the next build can erase everything. We (most of us) are here to help you all make a successful and fun game. To do that, help I mean, we need to know what should be happening at any given time with major systems.

If the much extolled patch notes for 0.35 had said that relics were the new thing but would not reliably appear until later, we would have been bummed by the stop of progression, but understanding of the process.

Can’t say it enough. Help us help you. Give us a real and immediate idea of how things should be working. Without that? Why are we even here?

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Admitted, I think it was true. Over the weeks post 0.35 I think there were one or two confirmed drops of relics from chests as well as several from salvaging.

Other than that I agree with all you said.

We all put energy into this because we WANT THE GAME TO SUCCEED.

But we felt mislead by the patch notes finding out that things were not what they seemed. And being informed that “not what it seemed” was intentional, I do think this whole charade was - as Tresk put it “so so SO preventable”.

Either way, I commend @Salty for build a bridge. Thank you. Let`s cheer to better communication in the future.

And since a “misleading” comment or patch note can be totally unintended and we understand that, please when you see the whole forum community going down a crapshoot like we did with the relics please try and let us know that this is intended a bit earlier than this time. We all understood and eagerly await the next update. The long flogged issue was that we as a community felt led on for too long and “27 days later” still has not gotten over it. It is time for us to build a bridge too!

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Yes yes yes… this too! In the old days all of these various issues would have been worked out in an internal test or an alpha test. But that’s not really a thing anymore, at least for these freemium games. So the team is stuck whacking moles on the fly, while dealing with balance on the fly, monetization on the fly and putting together notes and communication etc etc. Bosses above cracking whips and us with our torches and pitchforks.

Totally understandable that a patch note takes a wrong turn here and there. This is exactly why we never ever ever (seriously never) invite people to bow in awe of amazingly perfect patch notes. Which… was unfortunately done here. :woman_facepalming:

The takeway:

  1. While you can’t say everything, make sure everything you DO say is accurate for the build

  2. Never ever ever (seriously never) solicit praise for perfect patch notes. (spoiler alert, those don’t exist)

  3. If you botched 1 or 2, own that. Or, as my hubby says… put the shovel down. :laughing:

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Sorry, couldn’t resist.

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Fist off Epic, Second sad that we made it this far lol