Mid-level player's frustrations with the 3.0 gear update

Game Feedback & Ideas
1

Lots of back-and-forth in other threads by players with lots of mythic items about fairness, leveling etc. … That’s past my pay grade.

I’ve got level 50 heroes, no mythics, just gear about 80% at epic and 20% at legendary. A few followers at 45, none at 50. … So I’m between the “newbie” and the “pro” player … i.e. in the transition between casual player and possibly more involved player.

I have one major gripe with this new gear system, which is this: it takes away my agency and many of the positive-feedback “rewards” of developing heroes.

Here’s what I mean:

Before, I’d figure out some gear I wanted, grind out dungeons, get it in the wrong color (drat), or in no color and level it up to 15 and get the wrong color (drat) … but, eventually, get an epic version in the desired color. Yay!

Cycle, rinse, repeat, for other bits of gear. Each time I managed to grab that epic in the right color, hurrah, some positive feedback. Dopamine hit.

After that, I could work on evolving the gear: grind for shards and runes and whatnot to level the pieces. Of course, now I have to decide which pieces are more important … oops, no, actually I wanted that other one which is better when it’s legendary, etc …

But that meant I had agency. Choices. Felt like I had some control over progress.

That agency’s gone now.

So what if I have an epic, or even a legendary, of a desired piece? As far as progression to mythic goes, that’s basically worthless.

I have to grind to get those mythic items – and my best hero has to sweat it out to beat a 100 level dungeon, and even then, rarely gets a ruby or diamond chest (and, after at least a dozen of those since the patch, I’ve still gotten no gear better than epic out of any of them!)

In other words, that whole process of careful gear cultivation, over which I had some control, and which had little positive-feedback milestones along the way [get it in the right color, then slowly level it up, and the milestones of legendary and - what I’ve yet to see - mythic] … that’s all gone.

It’s been replaced with just “grind away until you get that very rare drop of the mythic in the color you want.” And that’s basically it. Sure, that last level of honing might take some grind, and give a sense of reward, but that’s trivial compared to before.

All that “agency” and “planning” of slowly evolving gear over time, sometimes from level 1 common, to be the pieces I want … that’s all gone. Replaced by the “slot machine” of opening 100-level chests over and over again.

In short, with the new system there’s a lot less positive feedback, and a lot more disappointment, and little sense of being an active participant in my heroes’ development, other than pulling that slot machine lever.

It’s more discouraging.

There are some things I like in the new upgrade (the map’s nice, and I really like the fact that spells now show the in-battle damage, not the base damage) … but it’s all overshadowed by how the “rewards” of gear progression has been replaced by a long, frustrating grind, with “accomplishments” towards the ultimate goals made a lot fewer and further in between.

So … that’s my $0.02 – and my best attempt to try to articulate what I suspect is a mid-level gamer’s frustration which isn’t unique to me.

But, of course, that’s also just one player’s thoughts … Does it ring true with anyone else out there?

14 Likes
2

This is greatly appreciated, always want to hear from a range of players - and most people in the active forum community are end gamers, so thank you for sharing.

As with any update, I run about gathering feedback so I have added this to my report!
As I have mentioned around, there ar more coming to gear that will hopefully address players feeling like the removal of ascending rarity has taken away their progress, along with some other changes we can’t mention just yet - those are coming in 3.1/3.2 onward.

That doesn’t help this feedback right now, but we are still taking on what the community has been sharing to implement in the future!

2 Likes
3

Hi Jeto.

Thanks for the note … I’m glad the feedback was helpful.

May I suggest a “fix” – well, more of a mitigation: allow the spending of an armor/weapon/accessory glyph to update a single piece of equipment from one level to the next.

E.g., to get an armor piece from epic to legendary would take 1 armor glyph. From legendary to mythic, 2 or 3 armor glyphs. Etc.

This - considered over all the gear - would be way too expensive to do for every piece … but it would give the option, for those who have found the “perfect” piece of gear and are discouraged at losing it, to hang on to it and continue to improve it.

That wouldn’t solve the “loss of agency and intermediate rewards” observation I raised in that post … but I think it would go some way to alleviate the frustration that I know a lot of mid-level players are feeling that their hard-won gear has become “worthless” in the long haul.

This way, at least, they could hang on to those special pieces that seem worth the investment of a few glyphs, and regain a bit of that lost “agency”.

-Switch

1 Like
4

Exactly what I said before the upgrade.
Its not so bad for veterans and ppl that open 100 chests a day, already full level 50 mythic.
But not so good for everybody else.

It makes all gear not mythic basically worthless.
No worth at all anymore, cause you cant evolve it to endgame.

Before 3.0 you could plan your loadout and work towards getting it mythic.
You did plan it, you had to grind a lot to get the res for it, but it was SURE, one day you will have it in the same quality as any veteran or other player.
No luck involved except of how long will it take.

Could have been very long and many players got burned out before reaching the goal, but with passion, patience and some frustration tolerance … one day you did make it.
Best moment in game for me till now … the day I had my desired full mythic gear and could play with the big guys finally.

Did plan it, did do it, did reach it.
Not really a matter of luck as said, a matter of getting information about what gear exists, building a set with synergies for your preffered playstyle and a lot of patience. But guaranteed reachable goal.

Now game got what many freemium games are, many match 3 games, many gacha games too.
Complettly luckbased.
I dont know if that really is better and if that make less ppl leave the game before they even reach endgame … but we will see how drops are and how long somebody needs to get all 50 and full mythic who not already was before the transition. I guess longer then before, much longer.
And then still he is not one of the big guys, then he still has to go a long way to get all this items max honed.

So I still think there would have been much better ways that would have solved the burnout problem the game has. (I fear this way will just make it worse)
And with that, it will make worse the problem Dev has, the “generate more money” problem.

Before the game was unique, not much luck involved compared to others, now it has made a big step towards any freemium chest generator out there.
And to be honest, there are some pro companies out there making this style of game, with billions of money, some our Dev never can mess with.
Dont seem to be a very clever idea to me to hopp into that shark bassin as a goldfish …
Ask Spacejam what sharks do with goldfish …

1 Like
5

Certainly does with me. I posted about it in the Gear Rework thread a few hours back.

A few members on Playstation have quit the game because of it and I can sympathise with them. Being unable to fully upgrade your current gear with resources has tainted the experience.

The gear rework may work in theory as a means for making extra cash for the developers (as they do like to keep moving the goal posts) but it’s at the expense of the player. Of course there are many facets of improvement that are greatly welcomed, but the negatives seem to keep rearing their ugly heads with each incremental update.

6

Just wanted to repeat what I think is the most important line in the post from Jeto above. Maybe they will address the problems people are having, maybe they won’t, but there will certainly be improvements.

7

Hopefully … because right now it’s really discouraging.

Not only that all the work I did trying to get desired pieces at epic/legendary is now worthless in the long-term, but because it’s just “slot machine” luck going forward.

.

TRJoker put the frustration I’m feeling well – used to be that you could experiment and plan your gear (mostly at epic level), and then, with patience and focused gaming [like where to farm], be “sure” you’d get it all up to mythic - in more or less time (depending on luck).

Because you had the ability to take your “winnings” (shards, gold, glyphs, etc) and choose where to spend them, to level up your selected gear sets.

Now it’s just luck. And (based on my experience, with now maybe 2 dozen ruby/diamond 100-level chests opened, and nothing better than epic gear save for one legendary necklace that was actually worse than the epic version I already had) it would take bloody forever to get that improved gear.

.

I’m not sure what it looks like from the already-mythic-geared side of things, but from the early/mid-level side of things, it now feels like that gap has been made insurmountable, and that I should pretty much give up any hopes of ever advancing further in the game.

Before, there were “guarantees” that I’d eventually get there. Now there are none. And that’s much less appealing.

1 Like
8

Completely agree with your sentiments and hopefully 3.1 and 3.2 can bring back some of the " “guarantees” that you’d eventually get there".

The main reason I’m replying though is I wanted to let you know that many guild members are posting screenshots of mythic gear they have got from chests on our discord. So mythic do drop with a low but semi reasonable frequency. You’ll also get aether from salvaging gear that you can use to craft mythic gear.

1 Like
9

Only yesterday I got a mythic drop of a gear piece I use in one of my main builds that was even better than the one I already had. This gave me hope that the goal of getting a full mythic custom build isn’t so impossible. I agree it seems to be quite more difficult, but I hope that with the changes coming on 3.1 and 3.2 it will become much more certain and less dependent on being lucky.

1 Like
10

Ah, but remember … MID-LEVEL player here… and that’s the experience I’m trying to describe.

.

None of my followers are at level 50. I can’t craft mythic items.

And it will be (to judge on the past rate) many months before I get enough crystals that any of them is able to craft mythic gear. E.g. my soulchaser is 32 crystals away from level 50. Gemka is 34. Xione is 30. Even my best, Toragon, whom I’ve prioritized from day 1, still needs 8.

So my only hope to advance desired gear continues to be the “slot machine.”

And, so far, I’ve had no luck at all at that “slot machine.”

.

Remember, too, that it’s a lot harder for mid-level players to get ruby & diamond 100 level drops.

I can’t autofarm those: it takes careful and strategic play for me to beat a 100-level dungeon. (Less so skirm, but, still, also a challenge.) That’s maybe 10 minutes of active play per attempt, and only a 10% chance to get a diamond chest from a dungeon (or so the game claims, and that ‘feels’ about right.)

So that’s, on average, 100 minutes – call it an hour and a half – per 100-level diamond. And that’s no guarantee of useful gear. (E.g. my batting average is 0 for getting anything useful out of the half-dozen or so diamond 100s I’ve gotten so far.)

Hunts, I’ve realized, are better, if I find one with guaranteed diamond at end. But even that’s 5 skirms I have to actively work at … so call that 45 minutes of active play per diamond. And if it takes 10 diamond chests, say, to drop a mythic, and one useful to me, that’s 7 to 8 hours of active play for me, a mid-level player, to get a useful mythic. (And that may be optimistic; I don’t know how many such chests, on average, it’ll take me to get something I want.)

.

update Higure has calculated about 0.8% mythic drop per chest (all chests). … If I average 5 min (best case) to get a level-100 chest (including failed attempts in computing that average time) … that is 10.5 friggin hours per mythic. … And, even then, could be one I can’t/don’t use.

That’s just ludicrous.

.

Sure, the end-gamers may be all excited about new and better mythics they see dropping.

But they’re getting many more chances at those drops, both because of their stronger/quicker builds, and because they’re the sorts of players already farming several dozen 100-level chests a day.

.

And – original point – it’s not just about the time-per-useful-gear piece it takes a mid-level player using that “slot machine.”

It’s the fact that it’s a “slot machine” at all … my ability to plan and gradually improve my gear from the mid-level players’ kit up to mythic has been stripped away completely.

All I can do now is struggle to get those high-level chests, then hope I’m lucky enough (I haven’t been so far) to get a mythic, and then hope beyond hope the mythic is of an item and color I need.

Lotsa time and effort just playing the “slot machine.” No control. No guarantees.

No ability to cultivate the lower-level gear I have, through painfully slow but guaranteed accumulation of resources, to bring it up to mythic level.

.

That’s why there’s a huge divide between the mid-level player’s experience – who is now largely shut out of getting that mythic gear – and the end-game player’s experience.

I’m pretty sure this gear update was aimed at those end-game players, to give them more to grind for. And that seems to have worked (despite the bad-feeling about not getting greater returns for level-50 gear at conversion.)

But the side-effect has been to substantially raise the difficulty (and reduce the agency) of non-mythic-level players who’d hoped to join those ranks.

.

There’s nothing I can do now to advance my character, except to struggle over and over again to get those high-level chests with their minimal % chance of producing something useful to me.

Which means my gameplay experience is now just failure after failure as I try for those mythics, with none of the slow progress or ‘benchmarks’ of positive-feedback that I used to get by finding and leveling-up lower-quality gear.

.

And that’s really discouraging.

1 Like
11

The current problem with “upgrading” is pretty complex now.

Let’s say you have a “perfect” 12-piece loadout in mind. For argument’s sake let’s go with:

Item (qty needed from set of 6)
  • Runic Mace (1)
  • Corrupted Guard Shield (2)
  • Savior’s Locket (1)
  • Royal Ring (4)
  • Corrupted Guard Ring (2)
  • Esgaard Belt (1)
  • Royal Boots (4)
  • Royal Pants (4)
  • Targ Gloves (1)
  • Royal Armor (4)
  • Fallen Shoulders (1)
  • Khazdhuli Helm (1)

You need to farm 8 different dungeons.
Once you overcome the odds of getting a mythic, you then hope that the mythic is the 1 (2,4) of 6 possible gear pieces you are targeting.
For the single items above you need 6 out of 36 possible drops. 16.66%
2 of 6 possibilities from Corrupted 33% for the first 16.66% for the second
4 of 6 possibilities from Royal at 66/50/33/16.66%

So the overall starting odds are 12 of 48 (25%) chance that a ultra-rare mythic drop will be one for your “perfect” loadout. With RNG being what it is, you could get your 12 drops in the first 12 mythics, or it could take 100(s) of drops to get what you want.

The beauty of the upgrade system was that you could cost shift resources to target a specific goal. Once you got the piece you needed in ANY rarity you were able to:

  • use a pool of resources to upgrade the ones you wanted to keep (glyphs, runes, relics, etc.)
  • upgrade them in the order you preferred
  • exchange resources from other undesired sets (at a cost) to gain the desired resource (trade 2 T4 relics for 1 you need)

These features were what the economy was balanced to, so understandably there is some discontent for those that were in the middle of their journey (had their “perfect” setup in epic/legendary) and now have had the roadmap completely changed.

6 Likes
12

I completely agree, those in the middle of their path to a custom mythic build have received a big blow.

What I like least from the new system creates by the reworks is that previously, to progress towards a max level custom build, you just needed a bit of specific farming + luck to get the spells and gear pieces needed, and then you could upgrade them with resources obtained from daily and general gameplay. For example, you could just do the daily tasks and with time you could end up with a max level build (a lot of time, but it was possible). You could also farm for other specific resources such as follower crystals, mythic relics or experience and still make progress with the build. This way, even though the goals (max level spells, max level gear, max level followers, max level citadel) required a long time, I could pursue all of them more or less at the same time, so I really felt the time I invested into the game was making me progress towards my goals.

After the reworks, however, progressing towards a max level custom build is 100% dependent on specific farming + luck. For example, just doing the daily task you will never be able to get it, unless you have an impossible luck. Farming other resources won’t help you out there neither, unless you are lucky to have a dungeon where you have various resources you need. An example of mine: if I farm pages for channel darkness, then I won’t be getting useful gear for me, but if I farm royal gear I won’t be getting useful spell pages for me. If I farm Xione’s crystals I won’t be getting useful spell pages and gear, and if I farm experience I will be getting random stuff. Each goal requires a really long time, but there is no way to pursue all of them at the same time. So most of the time I will feel I am wasting my time rather than progressing towards my goal.

All this makes the game more tough and boring, so we need ways to balance this so that the game keeps being enjoyable. Getting high enough chest drops, for example, is a must so we don’t spend ages to get nothing. We also need some ways to make getting high rarity custom builds easier, such as being able to evolve high rarity items, reforge quality or craft specific items (gear slot, set, rarity, quality…).

I hope these can be addressed in future updates as it has been hinted so that the game can work as devs want but without making it worse and less enjoyable for players. Be sure we will be giving as much feedback as possible to help there.

2 Likes
13

I wish I was a new or mid level player, so I can see the struggle myself.
Switch, you painted a pretty good picture and I feel you. I remember my struggle. For a very long time I was using a multicolor build just because I didn’t have the time to farm an item of my color. Back then the followers didn’t have the ability to re-roll attributes or to change the color of an item. And when they did get those abilities, my followers were far away from level 50, just like yours.

What I don’t understand is why is the discussion just about mythic items and 100 lvl chests?
If you are at 20% legendary, the discussion should be how to get closer to 100% legendary and then think about mythic. Considering your power, maybe you should focus on lower level chests, instead of 100. Find your balance between time and difficulty. Also, don’t forget about honing. What’s nice about it is that any resources invested in honing are returned when the item is salvaged. This means that you can hone your items now, and when you find a better one, it will be possible to hone it too with the resources from the old item.

Give it some time and share your feedback after a week or two. I will be looking forward to it and I will be hoping that things are not so bad as they seem right now for new/mid level players.

14

Hi Heno.

Naturally, I’ll be looking for some legendary items to improve what I have. And, sure, I’ll hone my gear - even epics - as much as I can, knowing that I’ll get those back when I’m ready to move up a tier.

Thing is, why should I focus on legendary? … I can autofarm at level 65 or so, which (it seems) won’t get me anything beyond epic. For higher levels, I have to play actively.

And since I can handle 100 level dungeons, why should I bother at lower levels? I want to max out my chance for mythic.

If I pick up some improving legendaries on the way, great. Probably have a better chance of getting those at level 100 anyway.

But there’s no point in pursuing legendaries per se, because they’re just stepping stones. Soon as I get them, I’ll be looking to replace them with mythic. What used to be exciting – “oo, a legendary drop! I’m closer to mythic now!” – has become useless – “meh, that’s nice, but it still needs replacing.”

It’s now a waste of time - imho - to grind for legendaries.

.

All this moves away from the main, original point though: the entire process of development has been turned into a luck-only “slot machine.” And that’s discouraging.

.

Before, I’d grind to get gear and colors I want (and I got them all by finding and upgrading, not with followers, who still aren’t high enough level) … then I could focus on leveling them up.

It was slow and incremental progress, sure, but it was progress I had some control over, and I got to feel good each time I found the right color gear (epic) and then advanced level by level and tier by tier.

Now that ability to plan, to accumulate resources that I’d thoughtfully spend to improve specific gear, etc – i.e. all my “control” over my char’s development – is gone. As is that positive feedback and sense of accomplishment.

Because now there’s nothing I can do to get it except pull that slot machine lever over and over again… and almost always be disappointed.

Sure, there’s honing, and that minimally improves gear … but that’s just “polishing a turd”, as they say. Because I’m still going to ditch that gear as soon as I find something better … because I can no longer cultivate my gear to higher tiers.

.

In short, the psychological experience of 3.0’s update for new/mid-level players has become much, much, much more negative … which is a really bad thing for a game to do if it wants to attract and keep new customers!!

15

For several reasons:

  1. It is the natural progression.
  2. It looks like you are trying to skip a rarity. If you could still upgrade your gear, I doubt that you would wait to gather all resources for mythic and upgrade from epic to mythic.
  3. You are setting up yourself for bigger disappointment if you are going after the mythics directly.

I am not a grinder/farmer. I spend 7-10 hours a week, and I rarely pay real money. What I learned from my struggle is that I should be open for alternatives, I should choose carefully where to focus my efforts, and then the gear will come.

For example: at some point I decided that it is better to invest time in getting the followers to high levels, than to farm for specific gear color. So I invested my gems in the weekly deal for follower crystals, I played events, so I can get enough marks for the weekly deal and I bought few offers that allowed me to get specific follower crystals. I also bought every crystal that I got in the kingdom bazaar or the daily offers.

You probably know this, but do you use loot tickets? Real time saver and once you unlock difficulty X, the loot tickets always give you a chest at that level.

So if you shift your focus away from the gear for a moment, and just try to make yourself stronger, so you can beat harder content faster, I believe the gear will come.

16

Thoughtful comments … and, in many ways, I took a similar approach before now.

I decided to prioritize gear sets … it seemed to me that, given the slow rate at which followers evolved, I should try to get gear in the colors I wanted by playing the dungeons. … well, after I mucked around with the gear I got by random drops to figure out what sets I wanted.

And, yes, I use loot tickets as much as possible! Part of how I got gear … I got my looting up to X just as fast as I could!

And, yes, going from epic to legendary is the natural progression … correction, WAS the natural progression. Having gotten many of my desired epics, I was slowly leveling them up to legendary as I got the glyphs … I calculated it made best sense to get things to 45 legendary first, and only eventually pick one or two sets to take further, given the cost in glyphs beyond that point!

.

But I think it’s all changed now. Goal is mythic gear, and that’s only obtainable by “slot machining” the high level loot boxes.

I’ll certainly use any compatible legendaries I pick up on the way … but, really, I don’t think there’s much difference for me farming boxes at, say, level 85 or 90 and level 100. … Maybe I’d do the former slightly quicker, but not much.

So, no, I think the best return-for-time investment at the moment, as far as “getting stronger”, is to actively try for those 100-level boxes.

And, meantime, continue to use loot tickets and to let my heroes auto-farm in the background (when I can) at whatever level they can manage without supervision.

.

Because, you see, the frustration and discouragement is not in how rare those mythic drops are, per se. Nor how rare (or not) legendary drops are.

It’s that my only way to advance gear up the tiers is just through random chance, and that all the gear I hunted for and cultivated before is now basically worthless … just stepping stones that I can’t advance, but which I’m actively trying to toss away by finding something better.

All the “positive reinforcement” and “agency” of slowly building up desired gear is gone … and whether I"m hunting legendaries or mythics, that sense of frustration and helplessness will remain, as I’ve been reduced to nothing but a slave to the random number generator.

4 Likes
17

Glad to see I’m not the only one greatly disappointed with the upgrade. The way I see it almost everything was done as a cash grab. Before every weapon had the potential to mythic, you could upgrade on what looked the coolest, affinity, or by groups. Now, that is all completely useless because it’s all decided by a low rate slot machine. So you have to craft a weapon. Getting your partner to that level is a lot of work. Using them is crazy expensive.

Getting a level 50 weapon has been partially been replaced by getting a scroll to level 50. My armor was level 35. I can’t remember exactly but I roughly needed 14 armor glyphs to reach level 50. Now I need 95 to get armor to level 50. If you grind for gems you can buy one a week. That’s eight times as long. Yeah you can buy one a week with coins but that is random. Are glyphs 8X’s easier to get… of course not.

A good way to grind gems is play another character. A great benefit was using the weapons you already earned and leveled up. You can still use your weapons but your scrolls were scaled down to your alts level. You have to upgrade your scrolls but your currency is shared between all characters. So you have to pull resources from your main to upgrade your alt.

I like getting achievements and liked the idea of of visiting past seasons to beat the bosses. I guess this was already the case but to do so is using gems to buy those seasons.

If your a max level player most of these disadvantages don’t affect you. But if you’re not this was an awful upgrade. I can’t imagine being a new player. I definitely would no longer recommend this game to anyone.

5 Likes
18

Can confirm I’m feeling some of that burn as well. I had 3 pieces at mythic - one of them not at 50, so of course that hit progression (though I do thank the devs very kindly for allowing shields to count towards utility scroll instead of weapon or armor).

Like you I’m now stuck in the grind of opening chests and not really feeling like I can do much of anything. I’ve gotten a very few pieces of epic gear from chests but mostly it’s still rare at best (farming level 100 dungeons only outside of adventure). So I just have to … play the same dungeons over and over again hoping that this time something will drop that might become usable? The grind was a grind, but at least I felt like I could progress, even if it was a crawl. Now it’s not even a crawl.

I don’t want the devs to feel I’m unappreciative of their efforts. I genuinely think it’s great how responsive they’ve been to problems brought up, but I’m definitely feeling frustrated and as if my efforts are now pretty close to useless. Before it was a grind; now it’s becoming something akin to a joyless slog.

4 Likes
19

Just posted about some of these issues here:

20

Wholeheartedly agree. I invested countless hours in working towards my first mythic, and now, when I was so close it’s turned into a simple case of waiting for what appears to be an impossibly lucky drop. It’s (almost) enough to make me pack it in and uninstall.

1 Like