To save the game for new/mid-level players. Seriously

@Jeto … and also soliciting feedback @ my fellow new/mid-level players.


3.0 seems to have done some good things to provide further challenges for end-game players (bad feelings about ‘reimbursement’ for level-50 mythic gear aside.)

My sense is that the changes were aimed at trying to enhance the end-gamers’ experience – e.g. by the occasional mythic piece dropping that would enourage them to explore new builds.

But the (perhaps unintended consequences) of 3.0 changes are that it has sabotaged the game experience for new and mid-level players.

And I mean that quite literally … no hyperbole.

I don’t think it’s overstating the case to say that, unless “agency” is returned (discussed in that earlier post of mine), it’s going to kill the long-term viability of the game. [Earlier post: here ]


Here are observations, and a proposed “minimal effort” solution, for you to present to devs @Jeto (I hope pulling them together like this will be helpful to you as you make your reports.)

Also to (hopefully) get feedback in this thread from other new- and mid- level players.




The game has been reduced to a “slot machine” to get high-end gear.

Instead of the promise that the “grind” will allow players to eventually make it to end-game play (even if it took much time), there are now no guarantees. This alienates new players.

There’s no “agency” any more. Before, new- and mid-level players could control their advancement by deciding where to spend resources, as they selected which gear to upgrade in what order.

That was a huge part of the game’s appeal to new players. It gave them the promise that - with effort, determination (and, yes, probably spending $ along the way), that they could advance through the game. It encouraged them to try out different gear pieces at rare & epic level, find the set(s) they liked, and then work hard to improve that gear, piece by piece & set by set.

But now gear and game advancement has been turned into nothing but enslavement to the arbitrary RNG gods. This is not attractive. … There are other and cheaper pay-to-win games for customers who want that experience.

Further, there’s no regular “positive feedback” that was once provided by slowly upgrading gear. Instead, opening chests (pulling that ‘slot machine’) is just one disappointment after another – almost constant negative feedback. Terrible psychology.

Random drops for end game players (“hey, try out this new option!”) is one thing. They already have their established high-end hero to play with. I can see that being positive.

But for the pre-end-gamers (i.e. all the rest of your present and future customer base), being dependent on random and uncontrolled drops for upward advancement (rather than “lateral” exploration) is terrible.


And, no, “But you can use aether to get assured higher end geaar from your followers” is NOT an answer … because new and mid-level players haven’t advanced their followers to that point. They can’t do that yet either

Nor will that motivate them to spend $ to advance followers. Because with no ability to select what random gear they’ll get, that’s just “pay $ to pull the slot machine lever” again. It’s just more discouragement.


I saw another mid-level (legendary equipment) gamer in chat put it well today: something like, “Well, I’m getting no mythic drops and doubt I’ll see any. So I can no longer advance. So this now a ‘done game’ for me. Time to go find a new game to play. Bye.”

As the effect of 3.0 sinks in, I think that’s going to be the reaction of many - perhaps a majority - of your new/mid-level customer base.




You HAVE to return the ability to gradually improve lower-tier gear to mythic.

That is - IMHO - make or break for the long-term viability of the game.

And I think this should be done ASAP — make it update 3.05 – because every day that’s not true, you’re hemorrhaging customers.

Restore this ability to players while keeping the other 3.0 changes will give you the best of both worlds.


Here’s what I think would be the simplest post-3.0 fix to do so, rather than simply reverting pre-mythic gear to the pre-3.0 system (which, in some ways, would be best.)

Add a new “honing” tier to rare, epic, and legendary gear.

That tier would be “upgrade this gear to next level of rarity.”

It would cost aether to do so… more aether for each rarity, naturally. That rate should probably be about 100%-200% (no more) of the “make random gear” levels – e.g. to ‘hone’ an epic piece into its legendary version would cost, say, 150 aether.

This would completely restore the ability of low- and mid- level players to make gradual “guaranteed” progress, and restore their agency to selectively improve gear, all while still working within the new 3.0 framework.

And it would leave all the mythic/end-gamer changes in place… as well as (I’d guess) being mostly if not entirely compatible with planned 3.1 and 3.2 changes.


Arguably, with this change, the ‘honing’ costs shouldn’t be refunded when quality gets upgraded. (They absolutely should still be refunded if a player choses to salvage honed gear rather than upgrade it to the next level of quality.)

Players will balk at this (I do myself as a player), but, from the ‘business’ side, it makes sense. You want players to have to keep grinding (and maybe investing $) to get the stuff they need to improve their desired gear.

“Losing” those honing resources would become part of the cost (in addition to the aether) of improving an item’s quality. And that’s very expensive, in terms of time and resources!! … far more than upgrading quality used to be pre-3.0.

So, in that case, best if it’s no more aether than the make-random-gear cost – E.g. 100 aether for fully-honed-epic → unhoned-legendary conversion … plus, implicitly, all the honing costs used improving that epic. Any more than that would become absurd and disheartening … maybe even that already crosses that line. I’m not sure.


In compensation, if those honed resources are not refunded for quality-improved gear, the “drop rate” of the honing items (runes, etc) needs to be significantly increased - else you’re just exchanging one set of frustrations for another.

NB: This increase would be a good thing for the business side, though, because every time a player gets something they need to help advance their beloved gear piece, it’s a moment of “positive feedback”. You want those positive moments, because it will make players more, not less, willing to spend $ on their gear.


And the post-3.0 game URGENTLY needs a lot more of those “feel good” moments. Right now, those moments - after 3.0 - are critically lacking for new- and mid-level customers.

Developing gear used to give that feeling of control, reliable (albeit slow) progress, and encouragement with each little step forward. … That was good game design psychology.

Stripping away that control and regular advancement to, instead, enslave players to waiting on the “slot machine” of opening chests for the vanishingly rare useful drop … well, that has made the new- and especially mid-gamers’ experience nothing but one frustrating disappointment after another.

These are exactly the customers you need to be encouraging to invest more time, interest and (eventually) money into the game as they advance to mythic, where they’ll join the ranks of big- and reliable-spenders.

Absolutely shouldn’t be discouraging these customers, as 3.0 has.




I recognize that the game has to make money. And, to do so, to encourage players to make micro-transactions.

While 3.0 is most likely doing that for end-game players, it is also slapping the new- and mid-level players across the face by making it “pay to win” from the get go.

That’s bad psychology.

You want to entice your early- and mid-level players to invest time and interest in the game by allowing them regular advancement and rewards. Not hit them with demands for money up front. They’ll go elsewhere if you do that.

You also want to give them a sense of regular (even if slow) progress – that’s the dopamine hit – and give them a feeling of control. 3.0 stripped that away ENTIRELY for new- and mid-level players.

To entice those newer players to commit to and eventually invest in the game, they should see microtransactions as ways to “save time” and “reduce grind” … a short-cut, a “time saver” … and absolutely not the only way forward.

You have to get players to be interested in and commit to playing the game first, then ask them to invest more $. Not the other way around.

Get them to feel “hey, this is fun, and I’m making some progress … definitely worth spending some money to increase my rate of improvement.” Rather than, “wow, I’m stuck and just spinning my wheels here. Guess I can only progress now by spending money. Should I do so? Nah … I’m not having fun any more. Why pay $ for something that isn’t fun?”

Save the “pay to advance/win” stick-ups for the end-games who have already committed much time and effort into the game, and who are more likely to shell out a bit more $ rather than just abandoning the game in disgust!


As it stands, right now, you are going to drive away a fair bit of your non-end-gamer customer base, and attract very few new players to commit enough to join and advance to that end-game level.

Meaning that, financially, the only way forward will be to continue to move the goal posts and try to milk your existing end-game customer base for more and more $.

And, each time you do so, you’re going to lose a % of those customers … customers who won’t be replaced by new blood.

That’s a death spiral.

Go down that path, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the game ceases to be financially viable after another year or so.

And maybe that’s okay with the devs. That is, after all, one game-design model. Short-sighted, imho, and alienating to your customer base, but a model that some companies (many now defunct) do seem to follow.

If that’s not their plan, though, things need to be fixed!!


There’s other observations/suggestions I could make… but I think this “restore the ability to upgrade low-level gear to mythic” one is far and away the most crucial … plus, this post is already too long, so I’ll leave it at that!

I hope it’s helpful!



I am just at the endgame level, and it sure looks like you are 100% correct.

It does feel like I won’t be able to grow my build in any direction. That is very frustrating too.

They keep saying there are things in 3.1 and 3.2 that they can’t tell us about that will fix this, but somehow I would think they should have a more direct statement about what is coming to “complete” this transition to the new style of progression.


Maybe … but I have trouble believing that.

I mean, why completely change the fundamental nature of the game – to turn it into an advance-only-by-luck slot machine – only to change it back a few weeks later?

All that does is confuse, alienate, and lose customers … and that would be stupid. I don’t think the devs are stupid.


My own ‘best case’ read on this is that they were so focused on trying to add to the experiences and challenges for end-gamers (and get more $ out of them, ofc!) that they completely overlooked the effect it would have on everyone else.


So I’m hanging around to see what their response is.

I imagine 4 possibilities:

  1. That, no, that’s exactly the effect they wanted to have on low- and mid-level players. i.e. “Suck it up, Buttercup. If you don’t want to spend time and money playing the open-the-chest slot-machine game, then we don’t want your sort around here.”

  2. That it’s not the effect they wanted, but they don’t want to admit the mistake or consider modifying the plans they already have, despite what it’s done to all those players. Which is just another form of “Suck it up, Buttercup.”

  3. That they’ll say, “Wow, that’s an interesting point. We’ll take it under consideration and maybe circle back to the question once we start planning for upgrade 4.0 in 9 or 10 months.” … Which is just a polite version of Buttercup.


  1. That they’ll say, “Ooops, we didn’t consider that. Yes, fundamentally altering the nature and appeal of the game by stripping away players’ ability to upgrade gear to mythic was a mistake. Unintentional, an unfortunate oversight, but, yes, a mistake. … We’ll prioritize fixing that ASAP before moving forward.”


Time will tell…


The rework is a improvement in my opinion. While losing old gear value is a downside, the ability to farm any set is a major advantage compared to the previous system, where upgrading multiple sets was time-consuming and costly.

Even experienced players and whales may not have had the chance to explore various sets fully, limiting their opinions and knowledge. The new system allows players to experiment with different sets like Dreamhold, Lightbringer, or Diraquine without spending money, enhancing the overall gameplay experience.

The impact of the changes on new and mid-level players are difficult for me to comment on. I would need more information and time playing one to form a solid opinion on it. The developers are likely monitoring the situation closely though, and have plans to address any issues in the upcoming seasons, aiming to improve the overall experience for all players.

Yes, that is the end-game player’s experience. … I’m not posting about that .


You have your mythic set and now you can play the slot machine to get more sets if you want. For you, that’s easier

But remember, with mythic gear, you’re able to farm high-end chests quickly, expanding your wardrobe while continuing to enjoy high-level play with your main set.

But this post is for and about everyone else


New and mid gamers can’t farm high-level chests. Nor farm them quickly.

They don’t yet have followers who can craft mythic items from aether, and they’re not getting a whole lot of aether yet anyway, as they’re lucky to pull even an epic from chests.

The barriers between them and mythic-geared end-gamers have been made well-nigh insurmountable, and can only be overcome by the “joyless slog” (as another player put it) of slot-machining over and over.


Thus my suggestion to restore the ability to players to upgrade their chosen gear to mythic … restoring hope, agency and positive-feedback to that lower-level grind.

And then, when they’ve finally got their first mythic pieces through grinding, upgrading, and $, they’ll finally start to be able to take advantage of the 3.0 upside with you … rather than being stuck and trapped by its downside.


As a player who was close to but not at end game, I can confirm that I’m frustrated. I’ve been grinding quite steadily since the update dropped. I got my first piece of mythic gear today.

That’s countless chests later, and as it happens, it wasn’t even a piece I was trying for (I was more focused on spell pages for that dungeon). I’m getting bored and frustrated already. And I’m going to have to do this for however many months to get pieces I may actually want, if this is accurate?

…I’m still in, for now, but this has effectively pushed me much further behind those at endgame, without a real way other than ‘keep trying, and hope the RNG likes you eventually’ to make realistic headway. I’ve upgraded my usual gear as much as I can, so the divide is what it is.


PQ3 is at a very tricky or even critical stage. Old players may not feel that bad or frustrated. Even absolutely new players also may not know “what” is bad. But for the mid level players the game may feel really dull. Players need “steady” progress, not kind of “lottery” type up and down progress. Just getting a few mythics will not solve the problem. For really good play one needs a “total good build.” The present situation is not suitable for that. Let’s hope all the frustration of the players will yield better change, as has happened so far. (edited)


I would like to present you another case, can’t tell if it’s “best” case.

The team has a vision of how the game should look like at some point. They have considered all of the aspects and saw that the scope of work that needs to be done is so big, that it can’t neither be developed nor tested in the scope of one season.

Most likely many changes are dependent on another change that needs to be introduced first. So, the team decides to group relevant changes together, and split them into three releases, starting with the one that lays the foundation for the rest of the changes (3.1 and 3.2).

Given what I said above, I don’t see 3.1 and 3.2 as something that will revert what has been done in 3.0, but rather as something that will extend and complete what they started with 3.0

Possibly you’re right.

But if so – if these changes just extend this new reality of the game (I.E. that gear cannot be upgraded in quality and that players are completely dependent upon random drops to get higher-quality gear at every stage of the game) – then my initial criticisms and warning stand.

Because that remains a FUNDAMENTAL change to the nature and experience of the game for pre-mythic-geared players. It’s not what current customers signed up for.

“Just wait for 3.1 and 3.2 to bring you more of the same” is just a version of “Suck it up, Buttercup” (see above). To put it politely. :smiley:


I’m sure I’m not the only player who will quickly get terminally frustrated & discouraged and move on to other games if this proves, indeed, to be the new reality of PQ3.

Nor do I imagine that more than a handful of new players, coming subsequently to the game, will stick around once it sinks in just how ‘helpless’ they are to advance their gear … especially as they suffer through one disappointment after another when the RNG gods repeatedly give them utterly useless and unwanted stuff out of the chests they grind for.


If PQ3 remains nothing but a “slot machine”, as it has become with 3.0, then it loses much of its appeal to new- and mid- players alike, and loses much of its power to attract and keep new paying customers.


I really hope the devs restore - and quickly - the ability to advance gear from low level to mythic e.g. with a new honing level, as proposed above.

Which would, hopefully, be compatible with most, if not all, planned changes by working within the new 3.0 gear system - a minimally disruptive change and coding issue that would have the maximal effect of restoring that “cultivate your chosen gear” agency and encouragement.

That would give the best of both worlds: attract and encourage and entice new players while still giving the high-end players the things they like under the new system.

Because, otherwise, I have little doubt (especially given how many new/mid-level players I see echoing these same sentiments), that a large portion of their customer base will start abandoning the game over the next several weeks as they come to appreciate how scr*wed they are now.


First you say:

Then you say:

It doesn’t make sense to change it, right?

And unless you have seen their code, you should not make statements like these:

I feel like you are too impatient and too focused on the game becoming a slot machine, and you are not open for alternatives. What if they keep the chest drops a slot machine, but provide an alternative and more secure way of getting gear of desired rarity?

Why too impatient? Because, usually, when significant changes are made, it takes time to:

  • collect data
  • analyze the data
  • discuss the results of the analysis
  • come up with ideas for improvements and determine their overall impact on the game as it is and the planned changes
  • fit them in the development schedule
  • actually implement them and release them

And it has been less than a week, since the release of 3.0. The odds of that slot machine are tweakable. If the analysis shows that they need balancing, they will tweak them, just like they did with the spell pages and everyone will be happy.

Also, you are now treating the game like a Mario pipe in level 4 that takes you to level 12. Just because mythic drops are a thing now, it doesn’t mean that you have to jump from epic to mythic. You can try, but it is a given that it will be hard, more time consuming and more disappointing because you are not strong enough.

That’s irrelevant to the main point.

My complaint - and the frustration of so many mid-level players - isn’t that the drop rates are low. I mean, yeah, they are, and maybe that will be tweaked, but that’s a secondary issue.

The complaint is the slot machine itself.


Our ability to cultivate our gear is gone now … upgrading quality levels is now a completely random slot machine. There’s no other avenue for improvement.

And that destroys most of the fun and positive feedback for pre-mythic players trying to improve.

Tweaking things like drop rate, sure, would make the new game experience slightly less overwhelmingly frustrating and discouraging for those new- and mid-level players.

But that doesn’t touch the fundamental issue and frustration.


I recognize that the 3.0 changes have upsides for end-gamers who can quickly farm many high-end chests. Some other upsides too. That’s good, and such improvements should be kept.


But as long as gear improvements from low level to mythic are completely dependent on “slot machining” chests, with no avenue for gradual and player-guided improvement of existing gear, then my observations and criticisms stand, regardless of how much the slot machine is tweaked or other furniture on the Titanic is rearranged.


That’s precisely what my proposed solution in the original post suggests. Did you read it?


I agree Switch. I’m 50(67) and getting rather fed up with it all. I have legendary gear with 1 mythic (which required me to convert almost all random relics I had just to get it). And I’m stuck. The only real progress I make is by boosting my level. I haven’t upgraded a spell I use since their spell rework. That spell rework also killed my alt because what’s the point in playing a character that is bad yet cannot improve. I’m not gonna dump any glyphs in his spellbook. I need them for my main. This gear rework just made that worse. So he is now dying slowly from loneliness.

My main can do a level VI dungeon. VII if everything goes right and some luck. Level VII is ‘Normal’ after the gear rework but they kill me without much effort. Another glitch I suppose. Or just incompetence on my part. Anyway : even doing a lot of the VI ones (level 80 chests) gives nothing. I got 1 (useless) legendary. And they really should add now an (optional) automatic salvaging for everything under your gear rarity. I really don’t understand why I need to push every time a button for blue gear and below which they made unusable and boring. At least in the previous setup you had to see if the color/attributes where nice enough to keep it.

Some of my followers are legendary (gear/spell). So basically all need over 25 crystals to become actually really usable in this new world. Sure, that will happen overnight :frowning: At the moment the most I can do is using 100 Aether to get a new legendary. But again : I worked hard on my existent gear. I’m not really looking for new legendaries.

The fact that you cannot develop your character except by a lucky drop, which you are too low to get consistently, is indeed killing the game for me.

I don’t mind paying a little for a game to support it, if I’m having fun. But that’s done. They’re cut-off. It’s the only language they understand. I’m willing to wait to see what 3.1 brings (or I hope a 3.0.x), but if that one doesn’t come quickly it will be indeed also be bye-bye.

I also highly doubt they understand what they have actually done. Just look at their anniversary event. You get an epic helmet. They might as well given out some Aether. They’ve cut off the feet and knees of their game to solve issues at the head. I wonder how surprised they’ll be when that head topples off because there is nothing to support it?


If I could give you a little advice. Anytime you can do a party with someone whose running X’s, do it. You’ll not only get better drops, but you’ll unlock those dungeons for yourself at level 10.

1 Like

I just began like two weeks ago after having downloaded it last year. Right when I found a loop that seemed worth the time, I’m all of a sudden back to being confused. Boosted me enough to have time to figure it out, but man am I lost.

I believe this will be the near universal response from non-end gamers as they realize the gear they’ve been working on so hard is now “useless” – i e. can’t be improved up to mythic any more, only replaced by a lucky (very very lucky) drop. That all they have to look forward to now is an unenjoyable, thankless grind pulling that slot machine lever over and over for one disappointment after another.

Sure seems the most common reaction reported by mid-level gamers in both chat and forums… so I believe that is the majority response.

Shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone, either.


Not only by mid-level. No matter how good the rework has been for me, a veteran player, I cannot but agree on how bad the road to a full mythic custom build feels right now. It reminds me of the time I had to farm season 2.0 dungeons to get the 8 corrupted relics I needed to to get 2 corrupted pieces to mythic (we didn’t have the ability to buy them or get them from eveline at that time). It was over 2 months farming a single dungeon and oppening hundreds of “useless” chests waiting for those lucky drops that sometimes took weeks. The experience was pretty bad, boring, joyless and tedious. Had I needed to do that for all 12 pieces I might had decided not to even try it. And the time I have spent farming after the update in search of mythic pieces feels exactly the same as that.

Now, we can argue that the new farming may be not so different in terms of time taken compared to upgrading a legendary by spending 4 glyphs and mythic relics. However, the difference is that the latter created a sense of progression where each glyph and mythic relics felt like steps to getting near the goal. That made the process much more enjoyable and even predictable, since in the end it could be just a matter of getting enough gems to buy them. The current system, on the contrary, gives no feeling of progression: you either get the drop or you don’t.

This is a game where the long term goal is not clearing its content (which after the rework I am pretty sure it can be done with just legendary gear) but getting the best gear and builds. So for players to keep playing they need to be able to see purchasing those goals feasible.

  • Veteran players are pretty happy because they have now further goals (max honing, getting higher quality mythics…).

  • Starting players can be pretty happy since they haven’t known the previous system and they will be getting high rarity items much faster than what we did (I started a new account to test it and I am pretty surprised: already level 40 and a great custom build with 2 legendaries, 2 epics and the rest rares, when previously even having all rares wouldn’t have been possible).

  • The main issue is for mid players that already had a custom build prepared and where in the middle of upgrading it… And now not only have they lost that path, but the alternative is nothing but a tedious and joyless grind with no sense of progression and feeling more like spending time for another shot at the lottery. If they believe the results are not worth the effort… I understand how frustrated and on the verge of quitting they are. As a game, we play it mostly to enjoy it. Otherwise, why even play?

So, although I personally like the gear rework and I believe there are plenty of positive aspects, I agree that the current path to a mythic custom build is a big issue that may make players quit from frustration and lack of enjoyment. I believe a solution for this is required in order to make sure that players reaching mid game will feel motivated to keep playing towards the goal of becoming stronger. I see 2 main ways of doing this (there can be others, but those 2 are the ones that come to my mind):

  • Improving drop quality. Right now mythic item drop is too low to keep mid players engaged. 1 “random” mythic a week (you can reduce randomness by farming specific dungeons, but then you are limiting yourself to only play that) is a bad drop rate when that is the only way you have. Personally, I believe better drops would help, but it wouldn’t be enough yet.

  • Having the ability to upgrade/craft mythic gear. Relying only on random drops to get a custom mythic build doesn’t seem practical, since the drop rate needed to make it enjoyable would need to be too high. Therefore, we need to have some other way to make sure we can slowly work towards our goal with certainty. For example, a follower ability to craft a specific mythic item. This way, lucky drops will still be highly appreciated when they appear, but we are no longer dependent on them. Each rare and above item we get and salvage will make us feel we are progressing towards the goal of getting the mythic piece we want once we have gained enough aether. I believe this would make the farming process for mid level players less frustrating and more enjoyable. Even if it takes some time (as it did also take before) you would know that once you reach the aether amount needed you would get your desired mythic piece.

Therefore, I really hope that the devs take the opportunity of the upcoming follower rework and make sure that apart from the lucky drop path we also get a more certain, no random way of getting the mythic items we want (the quality of the craft may still be random, that can be balanced with the crafting cost and with another possible ability for reforging quality of items). Randomness is nice and opening chests becoming more interesting is surely something welcome. But we also need some certainties and much more when currently the new system makes opening chests less “I am excited to see what it is inside” and more “if this is the 100th chest with nothing valuable I will rage” (a feeling enhanced by the historical issue of this game of having too many worthless resources, nothing more frustrating than opening a diamond chest to get a follower crystal you have no use for, your 500 and 5001th rare relic, 300th epic relic, 200th legendary rune and 100th mythic scroll…).

I am putting my hopes on this. It is tough that we will need to wait so much but if at least we can trust that the issues will be solved it may help us being patient enough to see if the new system can be further honed so that all of us can fully enjoy it. The current feelings of the player base are quite clear: progressing towards a high rarity custom build is boring, tedious, joyless and too dependent on randomness. I trust the devs to aknowledge this and work towards addressing our concerns and giving us a better experience for us to keep playing and enjoying.


I completely agree with you on this and fully support the hard work the dev team do to give us the better game they can within their limitations. However, I also understand players that don’t like the idea of spending 2 months (or 4 if we are talking about 3.2) with a progression system that feels tedious and joyless. We can ask them to be patient and wait to see how the devs respond, to also enjoy the good aspects of the rework that up to a certain point can compensate for the worse ones. However, the reality is that players will play a game to enjoy it and if the devs fail to give them that, we cannot blame them for being frustrated, upset or even leave the game. Devs need time to get things done indeed, but the more time players don’t enjoy the game the more likely it is to lose them.

From most of these mid level players I feel the deep sadness of seeing themselves no longer enjoying a game they like a lot. Therefore I find it great they go beyond plain complaining and fully express themselves, clearly stating their concerns and frustration with the rework, even giving ideas and suggestions, because it will be a great help to devs to know how to keep improving the rework with future updates. I trust the devs to come with solutions to these problems, as it has happened several times before, and I would love for all these mid level players to stay with us so that they can keep enjoying the game when the improvements are applied.


This is the heart of it.


Depending on random only for gear advancement is not a practical path forward.

Either the drop rate is so low (like now) that the grind experience becomes almost completely negative, as almost everything is functionally useless, or the drop rate is so high that players no longer have an incentive to use micro-transactions to “speed up” the process.

This gives you the choice between discouraging and so losing players, or making the goals too obtainable and so losing payments.

You want a grind, yes, but you need players to enjoy – or at least be willing to pursue – that grind. And for that, they need regular positive feedback and “guarantees”, not the near-constant discouragement of randomness-only.

Before 3.0, the use of gathered resources to slowly upgrade chosen gear provided that enjoyment and positive feedback… now that’s gone.


The ability to upgrade chosen gear to mythic, one way or another, is a sine qua non , I’d argue, both for player retention and for getting micro-transactions.

Players are far more likely to spend $ to speed up this “certain” process – and to spend $ on pieces they have in hand and have devoted time and resources to acquiring and so care about – than they are just to play the “chest lottery”.


I think even new, post-3.0 customers will feel this same way once they reach that mid-game point.

This isn’t just about losing a fair % of the current customer base as the game transitions from one sort of play experience to a very different one… I think the random-only philosophy, however it’s tweaked, would produce very few new customers willing to stick around and advance to mythic / end-gaming (where, I expect, the majority of the reliable microtransations would occur.)


So — whether it’s through another “layer” of honing (to take selected gear up one quality level), or through followers (e.g. for 50/100/500 aether, a level 40/45/50 follower will upgrade your fully-honed rare/epic/legendary gear piece to the epic/legendary/mythic equivalent, like upgrading quality levels before) — there has to be some “non-random” way to progress.

Or buh-bye customers and buh-bye a chunk of income.


3.0 did some good things for end-gamers, no doubt.

I’d say Gear Scrolls being per-hero is more dubious, given how expensive that is – it’s going to prevent players from exploring other characters and other builds (and thus give fewer goals they might spend $ on.) Others have commented on this.

So, no,I don’t think those good things should be scrapped – especially as I’ve heard so many end gamers speak favorably about the changes for their end-game play.

I’m fairly sure that end-game was where the attention and thought about 3.0 was directed. Maybe no one even paused to consider the effect it would have on everyone else.


But the ability to gradually improve lower-level gear up to mythic has to be restored … I believe it’s both psychologically and financially unwise to leave the game as “advance through random chance only” the way it now stands.

And the sooner a fix, the better, for the sake of customer retention!


Thankyou for the advice. It’s much appreciated. But I am a solo player in heart. I even have my own 1 man kingdom. Also it wouldn’t feel like I achieved the unlock by doing it in a party. I think your advice would be good and acceptable for many. I’m just a special weird guy :slight_smile:

Not to derail the thread but when you say “one random mythic per week”, what do you mean? Are you saying the drop rate is time-based and we’re capped at one mythic per week?