Mid-level player's frustrations with the 3.0 gear update

Game Feedback & Ideas
44

I’m not a new player either and you know there is an actual formula right? And the drops are alot higher than 30. Higure has researched this and can tell you exactly how many pages you’ll get. Maybe he’ll drop a comment the next time he gets on.

As far as time gating goes, that’s what food and keys are for, to minimize or eliminate that time you need to wait altogether. I do think food drops are too low at the moment, because before 3.0 you could farm forever, now it catches up to you, but chests are so much better as well that it really doesn’t surprise me either. Nonetheless would still like to see food bumped up a bit or maybe a redesign of bazaar where we get things like food and ore buys, tickets, and mythic relics at a much lower cost, say 1k gems each. Something that’s a bargain, but also fair to both the players and the game’s economy.

45

We just got given the whole Savior set during Golden Week so it’s not fair to use that set to show how great the drops are. If you’re going to use an example, please make sure it’s an equitable one.

47

Whole set of guard and whole set of royal, that better?

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49

No mythics, its a new account.

50

Yes, thank you. I’m very happy that you got such excellent drops to have a new set of guard and royal, that’s great!

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51

You’re quite right.

And, yes, the game is very different than it was a few months ago, when (it sounds like) you were last here.

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Sounds as if you, like me, liked the challenge and ‘puzzle’ of selecting good gear sets and then advancing them to a high level.

That’s all gone now. That “central” and “essential” part of the game (at least, central for players like us) has been completely gutted. You can’t advance gear to a higher rarity anymore.

Now you’re completely dependent on random drops. And, as you’ve found, most of what you get is cr*p, only occasionally a good item which, even more rarely, will be of any use to you.

In a fundamental way, it’s a completely different game now.

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Of course, there are some people who seem to like this new slot-machine version … just getting random things at random times, without any sort of strategic selection and advancement of gear.

This is particularly true of the end-game players who already have their high-end gear sets and level-50 battle scrolls (and so using all their heroes).

Also particularly true of the people who are full-time gamers, who rake in hundreds of high-end chests a day, and who tend to think that that experience is typical of more than a small fraction of the customer base.

These are the people who get lots of mythics in a short period and seem to think that’s typical of everyone’s game experience. I think those people are in the minority.

A lot of people have quit the game since 3.0 turned it into a slot-machine, and I think a fair number more (like myself) are waiting around to see if this is adequately fixed in the upcoming updates before quitting … but, yes, there are a vocal few who like the new regime.

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Regardless, to move away from opinions/preferences and give you some actual stats: folks (like Higure) have estimated that mythic gear drops from about 0.8% to 1% of level 100 chests.

Assuming that’s right, if you want 2 mythic items from a particular gear set, statistically, you will have to get 900 level-100 chests on average (median) to get those 2 items.

If you want a full set from a dungeon, you’ll have to (again on average) get about 1470 level-100 chests from it. (Easiest to get the first - 1:100 - hardest to get the last - 1:600).

If you have 4 pairs of items from 4 different dungeons in your gear set, plan on needing to go through about 3600 chests to get them to mythic now.

Of course, will take more or less time/chests depending on your luck (or lack thereof), but that’s the average.

So, yes, it’s still possible to advance your gear sets … but not anytime soon, at least, not if you have anything going on in your life other than playing computer games.

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You can decide for yourself if you think this new system is an improvement … or if it’s any faster to upgrade a particular gear set now than it used to be before.

It is faster to get random mythic items (often of no use to your particular hero or gear set) now – and, for some people, that’s enough.

But, unlike before, there are no guarantees that you’ll, eventually, get your desired gear set up to a high level, because you can no longer upgrade them.

Instead, it’s just one pull of the slot-machine lever after another, as you open chest after chest, almost always to be frustrated and disappointed, unless you don’t care what drops.

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Still, take those percentages, compare them to your own gameplay time/style, and you can get a rough estimate of how long it will take you to upgrade your current build under the new, it’s-all-a-slot-machine version of PQ3 that you’ve returned to.

And then you can decide for yourself which ‘camp’ you fall into.

Or if it’s worth playing any more.

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There are more changes coming – details are expected sometime this month – which may improve things. Or not. Or only tweak it to help end-gamers and whales but leave everybody else still out in the cold. We just don’t know.

But that might be something to wait and hear about before giving up completely on the game.

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52

Its no question that the game was much better before last “upgrade”, even for veterans.
Its a mindless slotmachine grind now, no goals to achieve left with good and clever playstyle, just a luckbased grindfest … also for ppl that play a year or longer as me “and have everything” as ppl here use to say.
Before the “upgrade” the game mechanic was unique, no other game out there was same.
Now its one of 1000`s of gacha games, and its even not a very good or complex one, lousy balanced, expensive as hell, worst PvP in a game ever and without any new content since ages (no, seasons are not new content, they are refurbished old content).
So same here, on the “veteranside”, I wait for the next “fixes” and if they do not change the things a lot, I will stop playing. Not worth my time anymore.
There are much better and more polished and shiny slotmachines and gachas out there. A real lot!
(Ok, I dont like them much, but as this game did jump into that cage, it has to mess with them now and sadly it goes down before end of first round without a chance)

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53

When i 1st started reading this ppst i was not sure what all the negativity was about that i just started ignoring this thread, however i now feel so sorry for the new/ mid level players after what i have just seen. So i have all heros at L50 and they all have maxed L50 scrolls, hence why i could not relate to this thread, i decided i would make a 2nd shaman and thught id look at the material to upgrade my armour scroll to L50, i wish i did not do this as this has left me feeling terrible when i now think of the new/mid level players,

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54

Yes, anyone who didn’t have hero levels up to 50 is now basically scr*wed.

I had all mine at 45 … .will still take me 120 glyphs to get a single hero’s battle scrolls up to 50.

So I’ve given up on all but one hero.

Which takes away a lot of the fun of the game in trying out different heroes/spells/builds. … This doesn’t encourage me to pay more. It discourages me to both play and pay less.

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And, to add insult to injury, now glyphs and follower crystals are required for almost all of the 3.1.5 crafting additions.

Which basically puts all those out of reach of early- and mid-players as well. Because they don’t have those materials to spare yet.

Crafting additions look fun for those who are already at end game… the rest of us, again, mostly shut out in the cold.

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The only thing non-end-gamers get out of the crafting changes is the ability to craft with aether.

And, if my own experience is anything to go by, early- and mid-gamers won’t be able to make much use of that mechanic either. The rate at which they accumulate aether will be quite slow, because they won’t be getting many high-end items to dispose of…

Which means, despite 3.1.5 , the experience for new players – and even more for mid-game players, who want to start building up gear sets – will remain almost entirely a “gacha” / slot-machine game.

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And that, IMHO, is the real problem with all the changes since 3.0. Even more than the very-slow rate at which new players will progress.

Because the psychological discouragement of that (i.e. very infrequent rewards, unlike when we used to be able to steadily improve our loadouts, before 3.0) takes much of the fun out of the game. Makes it a “joyless slog”, as another poster put it.

Particularly once one reaches mid-game and realizes advancement depends on cultivating well-chosen gear loadouts. By then, gameplay has become repetitive, progress has stalled … and, after 3.0, rewards are just one discouragement after another.

3.1.5 will give them the very occasional chance - maybe once every month or two - to craft a nice low-end mythic item. But that’s it.

Other than that, it remains the slot-machine.

As others have observed, there are many gacha games out there which offer a lot more gameplay and with much more reasonable microtransactions.

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I had hoped 3.1.5 would alleviate this for mid-gamers.

Judging by what Jeto has posted, though, doesn’t look like it will.

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My playtime has shrunk considerably since 3.0 dropped, and is going to shrink even more between now and 3.1.5 (since I’ve used up all my loot tickets).

I’ll linger so I can try 3.1.5’s crafting out when it arrives.

But I anticipate it’ll do very very little to offset the fun-killing discouragement of 3.0 for all but end-gamers.

I mean, it looks like a lot of fun for the end-gamers like yourself.

But the devs have raised the barrier so high for the rest of us to get there, that my gut instinct is “why even bother any more?”

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55

To be fair, Jeto also said that they’re looking at adding more opportunities for us to get glyphs. So it may actually be a good thing in the end.

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56

Maybe.

Like, after I get 840 glyphs to get my heroes’ battle scrolls leveled up from 45 to 50, maybe I’ll be able to start working on my weapons? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Seriously, though … it may be “good thing in the end” for the end-game players, if a few more glyphs and follower crystals start dropping.

But the rest of us still face that insurmountable hurdle.

I don’t anticipate many new players will hit the mid-game stasis that this slot-machine creates and sticking with it long-term.

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And that’s the real flaw in progression that I think 3.0 made worse and 3.1.5 hasn’t improved … there’s too big a gap between the “ooo, shiny new game” of the new-player experience and the “hey, now I can polish up my nice gear” of the end-game experience.

3.0 made it shinier for new players (with nicer random drops), but worse for mid-game players, with these horrible battle scrolls and with the slot-machine replacing the ability to selectively upgrade good loadouts. Destroying the sense of steady (even if arguably too slow) progress.

I was hoping that 3.1.5 would mitigate that effect; that it would offer more to mid-game players to reduce that “joyless slog.” Make it feel “rewarding” again while trying to put together good loadouts.

As proposed, I don’t think it will.

I’d be glad to be proven wrong, and maybe it’ll “feel” different when actually playing. … But I don’t expect so.

57

It’s predatory. 99% of people will burn out before mid-end game. The 1% that stick around and are susceptible to this style of game play will pay the bills

58

This is a very grindy game, plain and simple.

@Switch, you keep referring to “end-game players” as if they have been gifted this status. The number of hours that were put in to get to this “insurmountable hurdle” far outweighs what is required with the current game. Sure, it is very daunting for a new account to look at the numbers to max out an account, but that is the wrong perspective and is not the best way to set goals.

Prior to the scroll update, most of the “end-game players” considered level 45 mythic the attainable goal for all gear except weapons. So maybe do your calculations on the glyphs required to that more reasonable goal. Personally, I think it would be unwise to spend glyphs on level 46-50 if I had other characters I wanted to level and play as well.

The “end-game players” had to build up gear without many of the current shortcuts. Their efforts, documentation, and constructive discussions have led to the changes that now make it possible to get close to end-game in a much more reasonable amount of time.

I opened probably 2000+ chests with keys in the first couple days after the spell rework (2.5) to gather drop rate data and put together the argument for higher spell drop rates here. I spend a lot of time advocating for changes to content that I have already conquered, because it is that effort and journey that makes it clear where there is imbalance.

I know the character specific scrolls is still a sticking point that most players dislike, but like most sticking points in this game, it will eventually be balanced. Usually this happens well after the “end-game players” have pushed through those roadblocks with brute force.

Without having experienced 3.1 and 3.1.5 hands-on I think it is unfair to make a claim that it has not improved anything. Time will tell, but from my experienced viewpoint it looks like a move in the right direction.

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59

Oh, I agree it’s a move in the right direction … as I said in my comments on Jeto’s announcement, it looks like it’s adding some much-needed new challenges to the end-gamer experience, allowing one to polish up those loadouts to new heights.

Nor am I complaining about the game being ‘grindy’. Obviously it’s that. … From what others have said, it’s been too much so, which seems to be part of the motivation for the various changes.

I even mean to stick around to at least try out 3.1.5 in person, and see what it’s like “hands on”.

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No, my complaint, ever since 3.0 dropped (see the original post in this thread), is that the grind has been turned from one of “slow, steady progress” to one of waiting on random drops. Which substitutes a generally “negative” experience, as 99% of the time, what drops for mid-game players isn’t useful.

My hope for 3.1.5, before Jeto’s announcement, was that those changes would mitigate that dependence on random drops, turning it back into something more “positive” and enjoyable. Not that it wouldn’t be grindy, but that it wouldn’t be the “depressing grind” that 3.0 turned it into.

And my discouragement is that this has not happened.

Yes, there’s a little bit of 3.1.5 that the early- and mid-game players can take advantage of … but not very much. (No need to repeat what I’ve said above and elsewhere).

Upshot is that, even with the proposed 3.1.5 changes, PQ3 now remains not just grindy (which it always was), but a solidly gacha / slotmachine game.

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Arguably, the game is now (after 3.0) probably more initially attractive to new players (they get nice drops earlier).

And (after 3.1.5) will be more attractive to end-game players (new ways to improve loadouts).

But I think it’s been made far far worse for the mid-game players.

Of the “discouraging grind” and “enslavement to the RNG” that mid-game players face when they start trying to put together loadouts, enough said.

Add to this that, by the mid-game point, little match-3 tactics are needed, as effective loadouts will focus more on spells. (Especially the stun builds). This adds to gameplay becoming boring and repetitive.

And, on top of that, because of the horrible battle scrolls, there’s not even the fun of being able to switch between heroes and try out many of the different gear/spell combos (which used to add a whole lot of interest to the game). … Players now have to focus on advancing one hero to the point of being able to get the high-end chests, which is the only way to advance (through the very rare good drops and the slow accumulation of aether).

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So, no, I’m not objecting to the “grind” per se. That’s been a given from day 1, as you point out.

I’m objecting to the nature of that grind – RNG-based and overwhelmingly negative/discouraging – that 3.0 created and that 3.1.5 doesn’t look to be fixing, not for the mid-game players anyway.

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60

Nothing to see here, nope, not aimed at taf420.

61

Here are the level 45 Glyph requirements.

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This seems like a reasonable number for the power attained. I fully agree that the cost to go from 45-50 is way to high per character.

Perhaps some sort of hybrid solution makes sense…

Require that each character achieve 45 on their own, but make the scrolls from 46 to 50 unlock for the whole account. Just a quick thought. I have not run the math.

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62

They could make it similar to the citadel mechanic somehow.

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63

I think that would make sense. Not sure how but I do agree that the per character effort is far too high.

That said, while it’s still frustrating trying to get specific, targeted gear, I have to disagree with people saying mythics don’t drop at mid-level. I only just recently managed to get the glyphs to finish the accessory scroll and the spellbook (recently as in days, not weeks) but despite that I’ve managed to acquire at this point over 30 mythics since the changes.

Are they all ones I specifically wanted? No. Are they all colors I wanted, with stats I wanted? No. But that was a problem even prior to the changes. The fact is that while I may get cranky about now having the exact stuff I want, I cannot and do not deny that mythics do drop regularly if you actively try to get them.

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Don’t think anyone has denied this.

Higure calculated that they drop 0.8% to 1% of the time from level-100 chests. Call it 1 in 100.

My own experience is that only between 15% and 20% of dropped mythics are of any use to my hero’s builds. Would be more like 40%, maybe even 50%, if I were still playing more than one hero, but battle scrolls make that too expensive.

So call it 20% of random mythics are of any practical value. So that’s 1 in every 500 level-100 chests.

As for aether - i.e. the sole new aspect of 3.1.5 that will be open to early- and mid-gamers - my experience has been, opening several dozen chests a day, more than half of them level-100 chests, that it takes me roughly 4 weeks to get 500 aether. So call it one additional crafted mythic a month at that rate.

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I’ll leave it to individual readers to figure out the “rate of return” and “rate of progress” in this game for their own cases … how long it takes them to open 500 chests for that 1 useful mythic, or to get that 500 aether for crafting one.

But it bears pointing out (to those who seem to think that progress is rapid and that mythics drop “regularly”) that not every player (indeed, I suspect, the vast majority of players), don’t have 8-10 hours a day to spend on PQ3 as a full-time gamer.

Depends, of course, on what your notion of “regular” is.

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Then again, perhaps the devs have decided that they only really want to focus on that “select” group of the customer base … along the lines of what @melonfresh commented above!

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Still, speaking for myself, my main complaint, ever since the first post in this thread, has focused only secondarily on the “rate” of advancement (though I agree with the consensus that it was on the slow, probably too slow, side), but instead on the “experience”.

I.E. being enslaved to the RNG-drop “slot machine” mechanism, so that every drop (except that rare 1 in 500) is disappointing and discouraging… rather than the “positive feedback” of slow-and-steady incremental progress we used to have, of leveling up chosen gear, level by level, that the game had a year ago.

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3.1.5’s crafting mechanism will alleviate this in a small - a very small - way, but sufficiently infrequently for most mid-level gamers (the non-40-hr-a-week players anyway) that I anticipate it won’t significantly change that discouraging slot-machine “feel” of the game for them at all.

Remains to be seen how it feels in practice, of course … but the blog post gave a rather thorough explanation. I expect it’ll be just like I anticipate. Unfortunately.

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65

I would like to add that the glyph system is very difficult for beginners, especially with armor and resistance glyphs. It is not possible to collect level 50.

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