Shop Talk 0.36 Edition - Thoughts on Daily Deals, Limited Offers, and Currencies

Early Access Archive Early Access Game Discussion
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Hi!

Shop Talk returns with 0.36 Update Edition!

My original post outlined my thoughts on the various elements of the Shop including Free-to-Play (“F2P”) musings, an overview of PQ3 currencies and general pricing structures. Please feel free to revisit those comments here:

For reference, this is the current pricing scale via the Shop:

Pricing Chart
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This post will principally be about the changes brought with the 0.36 update including, amongst other things, the introduction to Relics.

Currencies - Descriptions

  • Crowns - currently a purchase-only currency; Crowns pricing is still the same (see prior post). Crowns essentially function as a “Hard” currency, purchasable with cash, a primary means of exchange for other items or currencies and is not currently able to be earned from gameplay.
    My biggest complaint regarding Crowns is the number of Daily Deals denominated in Crowns, rather than Gems and/or Gold more on this later
  • Gems - in-game awarded currency from completing storyline quest matches, sidequests, participating in PVP and Leaderboards, completing Challenges, Battle Pass, Shop purchase, etc. Gems function as a “Medium” currency; able to be acquired in-game through activity but limited in the amount that can be earned. The primary source of Gems for new players is storyline/sidequest playthrough. The total Gems able to be earned this way is 5,625 per playthrough (or 28,125 for all five playthroughs).
  • Gold - In-game awarded currency from virtually all in-game activity. Gold is a “Soft” currency; primarily obtained through gameplay and not limited in how much can be earned (but, in PQ3, limited by how much can be stored).
  • Honor - In-game awarded currency earned from playing PVP ranked matches. Can not be acquired with Crowns, Gems, or Gold. It represents a means of in-game exchange for other resources (keys, food, ore, etc.). Honor is now more time-consuming to earn due to PVP matches taking longer to complete.

Daily Deals

There are currently 6 Daily Deals (8 if you are an active VIP) that are priced in one of the three currencies: Crowns, Gems, and Gold. Prior to 0.35, most daily deals were expressed in Gold. However, with 0.35 there has been a significant shift away from Gold deals to Crown/Gem Deals (see prior post). Here is a breakdown of the change in Daily Deal offerings between 0.35 (250+ observations) versus 0.36 (122 Observations so far):

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With 0.36, gold deals have increased overall primarily due to the introduction of Relics to the shop, many of which are denominated in gold. However, this has primarily benefited VIP Pass holders as 90% of VIP Daily Deal offers are denominated in gold. Non-VIP pass holders see on average less than half of their 6 Daily Deal offers denominated in gold; since the VIP Daily Deals are rarely ever denominated in Crowns (EDIT 8/7/21: I found one instance of a Crown denominated VIP Daily Offer finally!), a non-VIP player has a higher percentage of their Daily Deal offers denominated in Crowns than a VIP player.

My view here is that Daily Deals should not be denominated in Crowns. Period. There are plenty of other things denominated in Crowns: Battle Pass Premium and Plus, Large Key Bundle, and most importantly Gems. However, as I’m sure they will continue to offer Daily Deals in Crowns, as it allows micro-transactions to absorb Crown currency at various price points, my solution would be: introduce two additional Daily Deal slots, denominated in Crowns only, for a total of 10 Daily Deals. The 6 non-VIP slots would then be entirely a mix of gems/gold giving all players an equal opportunity to purchase the random mix of deals that are provided with earnable currency. VIP Pass holders continue to benefit from 2 additional slots primarily priced in gold. But now you have 2 additional slots priced in Crowns to incentivize micro-transactions and engenders less bitterness about seeing a shop refresh with virtually all gems/crowns purchases as an option. Ultimately I think this encourages shop refreshes as players will be more motivated to see the available deals without that occasional nothing-but-crowns “jackpot”.

So what can you purchase from the Shop? Currently it breaks down into the following categories (from most common to least common based on my observations):

Shards

Essentially unchanged from the prior post:
Shop Talk! Thoughts on Shop Offers, Currencies, and Daily Deals - #2 by Sibelios

Given the haphazard nature of Shard drops from Chests, Events, etc., the Gem offers can be quite worthwhile, particularly given the increase in evolutions that can now occur due to relics. Being able to select specific shard rarities can be very helpful and can be a good use of Gems.

As of 0.36, Greater and Major Shard prices in all currencies are still flipped (Majors uniformly are cheaper than Greaters)

Runes/Scrolls

Mostly unchanged from the prior post:
Shop Talk! Thoughts on Shop Offers, Currencies, and Daily Deals - #2 by Sibelios

Epic Runes/Scrolls have seen a 50% price increase from 0.35 (150 Crowns / 375 Gems respectively now) but are also now available in gold pricing (3,750 gold)

Rare and Uncommon Runes/Scrolls have more than doubled in price (1,670 gold compared to 830 gold and 700 gold compared to 270 gold respectively). Rare Runes/Scrolls are now also seen denominated in gems (167 gems).

From my observations, Uncommon and Rare Scrolls seem far more common as Daily Deal offers than ever before. Previously I would have said this was a good thing because they were hard to acquire from Chest drops. However, with the introduction of Events, they are quite common as rewards and the average player will seemingly accumulate more than they ever will need from this source. Therefore, the increased presence of Uncommon and Rare Runes/Scrolls in the Daily Deals is actually in my view a bad result.

Relics/Crystals (NEW!)

What we have all been waiting for, right?! I am combining these two although the frequency of appearance for Relics is much higher for Crystals. However, as these were the two new additions, it made sense to group them together initially. So, based on 122 unique Shop Refresh observations to-date (either from daily reset or paid Shop Refresh) here are the numbers so far:

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Relics (except for Superior) are denominated in all 3 currencies and thankfully it appears that the favored currency is gold. Hallelujah! That’s the good news. The bad news is that with the change to Relic quantities needed to evolve items (only 1 Lesser Relic is now needed to evolve an item to Rare), Lesser Relics will quickly become an over accumulated currency and essentially will be unwanted shop items in very short time. There are not enough shards in circulation based on the current shard economy to do numerous Rare Evolutions (perhaps you would like to fish for the right Mastery!) and even if you could, with the introduction of the generic first Attribute (Strong/Life) to all Rare items, there is even less hidden value revealed when doing such an Evolution. Obviously, the desired change would be to see an increase in Greater and Major Relics offered to offset this significant imbalance in appearance of Relic rarities compared to actual need.

While the introduction of Relics to the shop is overall a positive one (just needs some tweaks!), the introduction of Crystals is not. The fact that nearly 85% of all Crystals offered are denominated in Crowns is a real disappointment. The gems pricing is not bad based on the conversion rate (500 gems) but it will take you approximately 40 Shop Refreshes to be offered just 1 Crystal denominated in gems. Given that a new player even after 5 full playthroughs will still need at least 5 follower-specific gems to evolve their follower just to Legendary, this rate is pretty discouraging. This is somewhat offset by the appearance of crystals as a reward option in Daily Challenges, but the difficulty assigned is often out of the reach of most players even with multiple playthroughs so the shop, in theory, represents the best option to collect Crystals, along the way. In practice, it will only be an option for players who are willing to spend 200 Crowns every time a crystal appears.

Keys

Essentially unchanged from the prior post:
Shop Talk! Thoughts on Shop Offers, Currencies, and Daily Deals - #2 by Sibelios

Nothing new to say here.

Random Gear/Minions/Spells

Essentially unchanged from the prior post:
Shop Talk! Thoughts on Shop Offers, Currencies, and Daily Deals - #2 by Sibelios

Nothing new to say here.

Glyphs

Essentially unchanged from the prior post:
Shop Talk! Thoughts on Shop Offers, Currencies, and Daily Deals - #2 by Sibelios

The pricing is essentially unchanged and the frequency of occurrence is still around 3% per Shop refresh. Given that Major/Superior Relics in the amounts required will likely take longer to collect than the needed Glyphs (at first!) it’s hard to say whether one should jump at the chance anytime a Glyph is offered (in gems, at least). However, with the changes to weapon scaling in 0.36, Weapon Glyphs seem to be the exception. The value of a Legendary weapon, especially one with the desired abilities (Dwarven Hammer, Royal Longsword, etc.) make Weapon Glyphs extremely attractive despite the price of 2,250 gems.

VIP Pass

Not much new to say here. Update 0.36 brought the following changes:

What was the Free Daily Offer (VIP) that was removed? It was a daily offer of 2x Wooden Key, 1x Iron Key, and 1x Ruby Key. It’s removal was offset the increase of 15 Gems. Is 450 Gems a fair trade for 30x Ruby, 30x Iron, and 60x Wood keys? I think it’s fair to say no. In my opinion, the VIP Pass was (and is) still best suited for the new player. Given the current game state of starting spell paucity (new players only get 2 starting spells), the Ruby Keys were very valuable to obtain additional spell resources. Losing that for gems which are in abundance for new players just by playing the game is a pretty bad result.

Overall, the VIP Pass is still a decent one-time first purchase value (USD $10) but I feel as if the value of the VIP Pass has now diminished to the point where it can be ignored for the time being until further changes are made.

Battle Pass Premium

A Tale of Two Premiums indeed! Where the VIP Pass continues to nose dive, the Battle Pass Premium has taken off. Why? Because with the addition of Events in 0.36 is it now possible to reach all 30 Reward Levels in the Battle Pass without any additional gem expenditure. That’s right! Before it would take you thousands of gems to be able to complete the Battle Pass; now, the Horns earned from Bounties and Events are sufficient over the 60-day period to reach all reward Levels. So what do you get with Battle Pass Premium? (Breaking it out between the limited items and the stuff you can “grind” through gameplay)

The Stuff that Matters
  • 1,200 Gems
  • 3x Follower Crystal (Random)
  • 2x Glyphs (Random)
  • 1x Superior Relic
The Stuff that Doesn't but here it is anyways
  • 25x Major Shards (Random)
  • 20x Superior Shard (Random)
  • 160x Honor
  • 2x Iron Key
  • 2x Gold Key
  • 2x Ruby Key
  • 1x Diamond Key
  • 9x Dungeon Tickets
  • 400x Food
  • 500x Ore
  • 12,000 Gold

Is it worth it? Well, if I were choosing between a one-time buy of either the Battle Pass Premium or the VIP Pass, I would choose the Battle Pass Premium. The extra 500 gems alone is almost worth it; more importantly, as premium items go, every player needs Follower Crystals and Glyphs of all types which mitigates the randomness of what’s revealed (2x Minion Glyphs would probably make me sad though). Throw a Superior Relic on top of it and you have a pretty good bundle (provided you are interested in spending money!)

Avoid the Battle Plus Pass like the plague though. At 750 Crowns, you get 5 additional Horns per day (which you don’t need if you are a daily player) and 250 gems and some random keys. The new definition of a bad value (that and the Key Pack bundles).

Flash Offers

With 0.36, Flash Offers were introduced. Here’s what was said in the patch notes:

There has been one Flash Offer to date and it appeared to be a reasonable value for gems based on the going shop rates. Nothing more to add at this time until more Flash Offers become available.

The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly (Conclusions)

  • The Good

    • Relics (at least up to Major) are principally denominated in Gold
    • VIP Pass Holders get significantly more benefit from Shop Refreshes due to nearly 90% of VIP offers being denominated in Gold
    • Battle Pass is able to be completed with no additional Gem investment; Battle Pass Premium value increases significantly as a result

  • The Bad

    • non-VIP Pass Holders get significantly less benefit from shop refreshes due to less than 50% of available offers being denominated in Gold
    • prevalance of Lesser Relics compared to all other Relics in Daily Shop Offers means that Lesser Relics will quickly become “dead” shop offers
    • VIP Pass lost value with the removal of the Ruby (and additional Iron and Wooden) Key rewards; the additional Gems feels like a lesser benefit
    • Major Relics are appearing in less than 10% of shop refreshes. Given that there are 15 unique Major Relics and you need 3 of each to do one upgrade (regardless if it’s the one you want), Evolutions to Legendary still appear very much out of reach for many months on a regular basis

  • The Ugly

    • Crystals - simply put, the fact that the signficant majority of Crystal offerings are denominated in Crowns is unacceptable
    • Mythic Relics and Glyphs - So you wanna be a big spender? Well now you have your chance. Provided you can even find the Superior Relics and Glyphs you are looking for, if you went entirely the “purchase with Crowns” path, one (just one!) Mythic Evolution of a weapon would cost you approximately $170. Oh you are F2P you say, you will just earn the Gems you say! Well start collecting, as it will cost you 27,000 Gems. Good Luck!

Thanks for reading! If you see any numerical or data errors, please let me know and I will update the post for corrections.

Also thanks to Throne of Odin Kingdom members for helping me capture shop refresh data.

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This is a hugely detailed breakdown, thank you for taking the time to write it.

Our team is currently looking into improving our shop. I can’t say much more yet, but again thank you for writing this up.

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Given the length of the post I wanted to call this section out again as it is both new as of 0.36 but also critical to how the game functions going forward. Clearly over time, in my view based on these numbers, there will be sufficient relics to to do up to Epic Evolutions, especially given the reduction to materials required for lower Evolves.

What about all the other materials though? Shard economy is still very bad. Shards need to be downgradeable to allow for more gear level increases since shards essentially can’t be targetted. Don’t make players go farm a level 20 dungeon for hours desperately hunting for lesser shards; it’s dumb (and it’s not even reliable!). Also, the real limitation right now going forward is going to be Epic Runes/Scrolls. These are still far too rare; a corollary to the shard situation. Again, make Runes/Scrolls downgradable. A Level 50 chest is primarily populated with Mythic Runes/Scrolls Drops and a Tier VI Dungeon Event is still giving Uncommon/Rare Runes/Scrolls. There are too many of these type and virtually no Epic Runes/Scrolls to be reliably found! This bottleneck where players must get gear evolved to Epic to be able to do this absurdly hard newly-tweaked “difficulty” but then making the means to acquire the gear near impossible (even if you spent a ton of money!) is clearly a sign that the Evolution framework is still dysfunctional.

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You rock @Sibelios . Your data-driven feedback speaks volumes. You may have cracked the code for dev engagement.

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I like the shard trade idea, but I think the conversion should go in all directions, not just down. If I have 1000 minor shards and can’t get the lesser shards I need, I should be able to convert the minor to lesser. Maybe at a 1/2 or 1/3 ratio or something like that. So, a minor would be worth something like 1/2 lesser, 1/4 greater, 1/8 major, 1/16 superior.

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You can do that now, it’s just an inefficient process. Upgrade an Uncommon to Level 3 or 5 and get more Lesser Shards returned on Salvage; same thing is true if you upgrade a Rare, an increase in Greater Shards returned.

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Yeah, that doesn’t really seem like the same thing. It sounds like you’re saying that you can target specific types of shards to be returned by salvaging specific rarities of gear. If I’m required to salvage a gear item, that’s not really the same as a conversion system across rarity levels. Also, leveling something up to level 5 to “convert” minor shards upon salvage is one thing, but implying there is a convert up system in place and trying to apply the same suggestion to lesser, greater, or major shards gets a little ridiculous when looking at the cost vs return (having to level up to 5, 15, 25 to use the shards in question to then get a slight bump in shard return upon salvage).

I’m guessing you know the answer to this. What is the expected increase in shards if you level up an item to level 3 (costing 10 minor shards) or level 5 (costing 28 minor shards) and then salvage the item?

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I did say it was inefficient. I also did not say that I thought it was a good system. I just simply said the ability to do so existed. Whereas the ability to downgrade shards or any other tiered materials does not exist.

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New event system seems best use for gems. Goes 100, 300, 500, 800, infinite 1200. Got my 1st ever glyph from it yesterday, for less than the gem cost of getting it in the overpriced daily store.

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Nice! I have yet to see anything more than an epic rune or scroll in terms of evolve materials. No Relics, certainly no Glyphs. Hopefully that trend will change!

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Thanks for the post!

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Tacet, can you explain what you mean by “best use for gems”?

I’m assuming you’re talking about the Event Cache offerings you can buy for gems in the Event Shop, specifically on the Dungeon side. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only benefit you get from buying those (in regards to potentially getting a Glyph) is in getting more tokens, which lets you do more battles, which lets you get a higher score, which rewards you more Tier medals, which levels your Tier, which gives you a better chance at higher Tiers of getting a Glyph. Is that what you’re talking about? Or is there some other benefit of buying those Event Shop Caches than what I just described? Because if it is just the tokens, then that’s only a good return as long as others are not doing the same thing. If you have 100 people doing the same thing, the return on the Tier medals can drop drastically.

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My take is that he’s referring to the “benefit” of each token equating to an event run which gives you rewards from the Event Loot table based on your performance. At 6 wins (enemies killed) you receive a random Evolve material. Whether this is actually a good source of rarer, or more valuable Evolve materials remains to be seen in my view. I have done quite a few event runs and at pretty high Tiers and I have yet to see more than an Epic Rune or Scroll. No Relics, No Glyphs.

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That’s kind of what I was thinking. It will be interesting to see what kind of return people get if they continue to drop thousands of gems on the dungeon event shop. Did Tacet get lucky getting a glyph after spending 3k-4k (guessing) gems and the next one will come after 10k gems? Curious where that will fall.

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Given the nature of RNG and the unknown drop rates it could have been a gem expenditure of Zero :grin:

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Haha, true, but It sounded like he was speaking from experience when he listed the cost at 100, 300, 500, 800, infinite 1200, so I figured he spent a little bit to get to the infinite 1200, haha. :rofl:

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I got my 1st glyph from a random gold chest yesterday.

One of our guildies also got a glyph from the dungeon event on week 1.

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I stole some of your loot mojo. Dungeon Event reward today. Hopefully a sign of things to come!

Armor Glyph Dungeon Event
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Huh I got a minion glyph yesterday as well during an event battle. Hopefully this is good to come.

Screenshot_20210810-203719_Puzzle Quest 3
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Updating this section to incorporate my “new player experience”. I can definitely confirm that you get more than enough Uncommon and even Rare Runes/Scrolls from the Event system that the shop offers feel very very redundant. There needs to be less of these. Getting only 2 gold offers from the Shop is not great; getting 2 gold offers of nothing but Uncommon and Rare Runes/Scrolls is just painful.

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