2.5 Spell Rework

[00h00m]

There are 2 glyphs in the cost of every level 35 legendary spell, and 6 glyphs and 4 T4 Relics in every mythic at level 45. There will be a big difference in the number of glyphs we have to go towards the new spell book “level” if you don’t refund the glyphs from the level 35 and 45 rarity cost.

In the 2.4 system all spells have to upgrade rarity and level in conjunction with each other. If I only want the “level” based upgrades I can’t skip the glyph/relic steps at 15/25/35/45 in the current 2.4 system.

Spells fall into these categories for upgrade reasons:

1. Rarity only upgrade effect (not hurt by the 2.5 system)
   Examples:

• I can’t find any spell that only has a useful rarity upgrade with no level-based benefits

2. Level only upgrade effect (completely hurt by the 2.5 system)
   Examples:

• From the Shadows
• Pay in Advance

3. Both Level and Rarity (partially hurt by the 2.5 system)
   Examples:

• Dark Ice to increase gem conversion # and increase %chance to create additional gems.
• Darkness
• Most “Channel” Spells
• … most spells

If, with the new changes in 2.5, my spells are reduced to level 1 without a full spell glyph compensation then you have removed levels that were already purchased from 99% of my spells. If you were to make my spell book(s) level 35 then you have still removed purchased levels from 39 spells and are requiring me to use spell glyphs to get those levels back, levels that I have already used 104 spell glyphs to attain.

For every class I have a class-specific spell at level 45 Legendary or greater. Will I still have those spells at level 45 legendary or greater after the 2.5 changes? It seems like after the “refund” is complete I will have resources to get those to level 35 and then choose one or two ‘characters’ to level all spells to 36 or 37.

Before making a response of “if we make your spell books level 45 then we will be upgrading the other 100+ spells for free” keep in mind that most or all of those spells are those that I would not choose to level.

I know we have not seen the new system completely, so all of this may be misconstrued, but from what has been presented it looks like many veteran players will have valuable resources effectively stolen from their accounts.

[Jeto]

• I’m following up with the team if there are plans to make season spells available as rewards within the season*

• I believe Morgan intended the line about “class” spellbook to more be: your class’s spell book (insert any class) will be levelled up as high as it can go, from your hero class spells, based on resources available > which follows into the next point of, that can be capped by hero level.

So while I have a level 50 necromancer, I did not have a level 50 spellbook > I think I had a level 43 Spellbook (since levelled it to 45), as I didn’t have very high-class spells

• Spell Critical Hit & Critical Hit Damage are separate stats from the normal Critical Hit Chance and Damage, so they shouldn’t affect each other.

• For your comment @Esoxnepa

@Esoxnepa

the spell glyphs used to level the non-class spells will not be refunded

@Jeto

or each of the remaining Spells not associated with a Hero Class:

• Any levelling resources that would’ve been required to get it up to its Level will be refunded.

• Spells that were damage/stat increased by level are now by spellbook level

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Currently trying to dig up a 2.4 version of my spells to show what they look like on my hero in 2.5 - but it’s proving difficult as the mastery on 2.4 hero I’m looking up is different

Edit: Luckily Kafka is not on 2.5 yet, so I’m going to grab some spells and compare on their account!

Here are Kafka’s account examples in 2.4 vs in 2.5

And a couple of unequipped spells

Also an increase across all Masteries in the new system

And a level 45 spellbook (as Kafka had a couple of level 45 hero spells, unlike me)

Hope having those comparisons help, took some time to grab between 2.4 and 2.5 servers.

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I have a meeting with the team in the next day or so to discuss the current feedback/sentiment/questions, so if there are no further comments from me or in depth responses, I might just hold off till I can talk to them in person!

*With that there are also still discussions happening on our side too about changes that might still be on the way, if I get told anything I can share - I will do so.

[Jeto]

In the meantime before my meeting tomorrow, the team is investigating reworking the 2.5 Spell damage to bring in Spellbook level more but if this ends up being implemented, it would go into a 2.5 hotfix at the earliest - so it would not be released with 2.5 update initially as it requires a client update.

Also, I have passed on the feedback in regards to Spell Glyphs from Spell Rarity not being included in the compensation and they are investigating, but no further information currently.

[Hagane]

Jeto, can you ask team to refund 4 spell glyphs for each MYTHIC spell player has? Players can only have mythic spell via evolve.

[KenpoKid69]

My advice Jeto, don’t lower spell damage. Spell damage is already low compared to physical attacks, and the 5% critical doesn’t do enough alone (since its not consistent) so the increased damage numbers IMO is a great incentive to get players to run damage spells more often than they do now.

[jose]

Thank you for replying to most of our doubts. Especially for showing us spells from 2.5. The big boost to the mastery overall does make me (us) happy. Hope tomorrow’s meeting takes decisions that make us players real happy.

[HigureTheStillWind]

@Jeto

Hope having those comparisons help, took some time to grab between 2.4 and 2.5 servers.

It helps a lot, thank you for taking your time to show it to us. First, it shows us that there will be an effective improvement of spell function through increased masteries (both general and through each spell). Second, it shows that we may have not correctly understand the compensation/transition system.

You said you got your necromancer spellbook level directly you lvl 43 because you had no level 45 necromancer spells. Do you remember which level was your highest necromancer spell? Did Kafka had any spell above lvl 45?

What I was understanding is that hero spells below lvl 46 wouldn’t give any spell glyphs towards the spellbook leveling, since those were evolving resources and not leveling ones. That would mean that the spellbook couldn’t go past the level where spell glyphs are required (lvl 35 I guess). That would mean that any player with lvl 45 hero spells would get them downgraded to lvl 35.

However, from what you show us it seems that my understanding was wrong, since you got your spellbook to a fairly high level. This completely changes my previous analysis of compensation. My complaint was based on my spellbook levels not being higher than 35 after the transition. But if lvl 45 class spells can make the corresponding spellbook go higher than lvl 35 then we would already be getting back the value of the spell glyphs invested on those spells.

I have 6 lvl 45 hero spells, 2 for assassin, 2 for warlock and 2 for mercenary, my main classes. If that means I will be getting a lvl 45 spellbook for those classes, then I would have no more reasons to complain about the compensation/transition, since I would be at a similar point as I am now (the rest of the classes would probably be at a lower spellbook level, that issue would still remain, though). Lvl 45 generic spells are another issue, since they don’t contribute to the spellbook level up, but as long as your main classes get to spellbook lvl 45 it is somewhat attenuated (not completely solved, though).

A successful update is not only the one that makes the game better afterwards, but also the one that make current players feel they are gaining something from it. I know that you cannot go blindingly giving us high value resources, but you must understand that an update shouldn’t push us back in our slow and difficult progress path in this game. Up to now the spell glyphs were necessary to get both a higher rarity and level. Therefore, we either expect to keep our best spells at same rarity and level, or if only keeping the rarity is possible, to get some of those spell glyphs back so that we can then go back to the original level.

Thanks for taking your time to answer all our questions. I really hope that when the day of the update comes most of us players and devs can feel happy and satisfied with it.

[TRJoker]

Well, if masteries now go up that much as Jeto did show us, maybe you are wrong … cause spells then automatically will do a lot more damage then they do now. And they additionally can crit. I am not sure if lower damage then isnt a good idea.
(edit: as you can see in Jetos screenshots all spells anyways do more damage in 2.5 then in 2.4 on same rarity and get additional rarities that again will highen damage per spell for the highest rarities. So damage gets a real big boost)

[KenpoKid69]

If the devs lower damage but keep mastery the same then it only makes the problem worse IMO. Because now your spells do less damage, but minions do more damage. Meaning you’ll lose more battles in tourney.

[TRJoker]

Well, as already said, depends on how much impact higher mastery has to overall damage, cause spells that one hit also cant be the solution … not from minions and also not from players.
And most minions dont use same spells we use, so I dont know if their damage really goes up, except of the higher mastery of their owners … but spelldamage of player spells will not affect that.

[KenpoKid69]

Mastery raises minion damage, the spellbook increased damage won’t be a factor. Which is what I mean. The devs lowering the damage would only hurt the attacking player while buffing the defender using spells with their minions.

[TRJoker]

Ok, now I got you.
But my point is not to lower damage … not at all, but keep it balanced IF mastery highens it too much.
Maybe then Dev has also to think about to lower minions spell damage, if it gets to high this way due to higher mastery.

[KenpoKid69]

Its something they’ll have to monitor, right

[shmaunpq]

Jeto, Thanks for the screenshots a picture can be worth a thousand words. I assume all the 2.5 spell pics are at level 45? I was also curious to see how a single spell changes with rarity and level but I guess I can wait until 2.5 drops. (unless someone can easily export a table that can be dropped in a post here)

Furthermore the tiny sinppits of examples you gave made me in the same post realise that the very first post could have done with a few more examples. It may have helped much of this conversation. An example for the Compensation / Transition section.

@Jeto

So while I have a level 50 necromancer, I did not have a level 50 spellbook > I think I had a level 43 Spellbook (since levelled it to 45), as I didn’t have very high-class spells

@Jeto

And a level 45 spellbook (as Kafka had a couple of level 45 hero spells, unlike me)

Given these level spellbooks you received after the update along with the pictures of levelling up the new spellbooks and the glyphs required you must have received quite a few glyphs back. I’m filling in a few unknowns for the number of glyphs required for a spellbook level, but you must have received at least 13 glyphs from Necromancer class spells to get a level 43 spellbook. Kafka on the other hand must have received at least 22 glyphs to get a level 45 spellbook. This looks like the glyphs used for evolution previously must be applied to the leveling of a spellbook. Otherwise multiple class spells of levels 46 and above would have been required and you say you didn’t have any.

Applying this to my Paladin (who was my first main hero and I somewhat invested in) I have 3x spells that are legendary 45 so 6 glyphs used in getting them to this level so I would get a spellbook of level 40.

*This assumes levels 36, 37, 38 and 39 cost 1 glyph and level 40 costs 2 glyphs.

*If level 35 also costs 1 glyph then I would end up with level 39 and one glyph left over which I believe would be mailed to me as per the last point under Compensation / Transition in the original post.

Applying this to my Warlock (Which I have invested heavily in) 1 x spell level 50, 1x spell level 46 and one spell at legendary 45 = 26 glyphs. This would be level 45 with 3 or 4 glyphs left over see * points above.

Applying this to my other heros would leave them at level 1 or 36 or 37. Great for my Warlock (although a scary number of glyphs to get it to level 50. If I can count I would need 40), Not sure how good it would be for everyone else as the spell values at a certain rarity and level is not yet 100% clear.

Seperately for the non class spells. I can’t really give an example as we don’t yet know.
As for my general spells I have one at level 50 = 10 glyphs returned for sure, but won’t go far in leveling heros.
But everything else? 2x mythic 45 and 18 at legendary 45. That is 48 glyphs in evolving. It feels like a lot of evolution glyphs not to get back. (assuming this is what’s happening, as a minimum it would be nice to get the glyphs back from the mythic level upgrades) I got some at legendary from chests but most I spent the glyphs on.

[Jeto]

@shmaunpq

I assume all the 2.5 spell pics are at level 45?

All the spells I grabbed images of show their 2.4 level in the screenshot, there are no levels for spells in 2.5

Kafka had none above level 45, but they had something like 3-4 legendary Hero class spells, and I don’t remember my highest Hero Class level spell, because I only used 1 or 2 in my main build so those were the only class spells I had levelled

Kafka didn’t have any non-class spells of a high enough level, to get Glyphs back, so they got Gold and Spell shards in their compensation mail.

@shmaunpq

Kafka on the other hand must have received at least 22 glyphs to get a level 45 spellbook.

The resources from the levelling of Class Spells go directly to your book, they are not sent back.

@Jeto

For each unique Hero Class Spell, the resources that would’ve been required for the copy of the highest Level (ignoring duplicates and lower-Level versions) are applied directly to the Spellbook Level for that Class

[Heno3HaTaTa]

Please give us a real examples with numbers, instead of these sentences which everyone interprets differently.

What we need to understand is whether a single hero class spell at level 50 is enough to get you spellbook at the same level. If not, then how many spells are needed. The same applies for other rarities - is a single legendary spell at level 45 enough to get you spellbook at level 45?

The above will answer a subsequent question, indirectly asked by shmaunpq - it there a chance that a specific hero class will end up with lower level spellbook than the highest level spell of that class.

The calculations that the other forum members did, indicate that there is such a risk, and we need a straight answer - yes, there is or no, there isn’t and here are the examples that prove why.

[Prisca]

Jeto, it was kind of you to provide us with the examples, they’ve helped quite a bit and reduced some player anxiety. We appreciate your efforts!

However, Heno is correct, words are interpreted based on prior knowledge, so we aren’t necessarily speaking the same language. If you will answer directly, without quoting anything already written, the following questions, I think it will clear up questions from many of us.

1. Will a single hero class spell at level 50 be enough to get you a spellbook at the same level? If not, then how many spells are needed?

2. Is a single legendary spell at level 45 enough to get you a spellbook at level 45?

I’m sure there are many other questions but the answer to these two questions will go a long way to providing clarity.

[Jeto]

Waiting for some questions I have asked the team to be answered but in the meantime, I made up this Spellbook table so you can see the cost of the Spellbook levels

Spellbook

[Lyrian]

Jeto, can you talk a bit about how spell pages drop from chests in 2.5 and in what quantities?

Do they simply replace spell drops in 2.5 at a fixed rate (if X spell would have dropped in 2.4, award Y pages for that spell in 2.5)?

If not, would running higher level encounters increase the drop rate on spell pages from chests?

[Jeto]

Answering the questions about compensation back from your Class Spells going into your Spellbook is a bit difficult as there isn’t just a spreadsheet or document that has it all written out nicely and easily for me ahaha

In saying that, If I can get the exact details of how the comp from resources spent is then calculated to the Spellbook level to share, I will - if it is anything more specific than
“For each unique Hero Class Spell, the resources that would’ve been required for the copy of the highest Level (ignoring duplicates and lower-Level versions) are applied directly to the Spellbook Level for that Class”

Every player is going to have varying amounts of Hero Class spells, such as one person could have every single class spell at Epic rarity compared to someone who has sunk everything into one class spell to get it to Mythic.

So asking “If I have one Mythic/Legendary Class Spell, will my Spellbook match?” is not a simple, yes or no unless you literally only have a single copy of one Class Spell.

As an example, loaded up a lvl 50 hero who had 1 mythic and 3 common Necromancer spells on 2.4 and then ran them through the transition to 2.5 they got a level 33 Spellbook

Then tried a level 50 hero who had 4 Epic (ranging level) Necromancer spells and none of Legendary or Mythic rarity - they got a Level 30 Spellbook.

Again, if I can get anything more specific to share… I will

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I don’t have information (myself) on how Spell Pages drop, rates, comparisons etc but again, I will see what information I can get.