Dear Developers: Why did you vaporize the value of my money and time?

The “Gear Rework” discussion has garnered a lot of feedback (both positive and negative) related to the 3.0 rework of the game’s gear system. Because that thread went in many different directions and topics, I want to create a thread dedicated to a conversation with the Development Team (@Jeto @Mother_Morgz @Kafka and others) related to one specific issue: the value vaporization of resources that cost real-world money and/or time. I am asking the Developers to please respond to this post. If they are not willing to refund the glyphs that I lost, then I am asking that they please explain the rationale.

SUMMARY:
The Gear Rework completely vaporized the high-value of some players’ glyphs that were invested to upgrade Mythic items from level 45 to level 50. This represents a vaporization of the time and money we invested in this game, and thus a break in the core trust we placed in the game’s mechanics.

DEFINITIONS & DETAILS:

  1. Stored Value: When a gamer spends time farming for in-game resources like glyphs, they are trading the value (or opportunity cost) of their time for that particular resource. Likewise, when a gamer spends real-world money on in-game resources like glyphs, they are trading the value (or opportunity cost) for that resource. In other words, the gamer is taking the value of their time/money - the potential of what they could do with that time/money - and storing it into in-game resources that presumably will be used for some in-game purpose. The more time/money stored into a resource, the higher the value of that resource. This is why glyphs take so long or cost so much to obtain… they are high-value items.

  2. High-Investment Resources (HIR): HIR are in-game resources that usually can only be obtained by (1) spending time playing the game or (2) spending real-world money. For example, to obtain glyphs in this game, players have to spend real-world money to buy specific glyphs, wait a week to obtain a random glyph [with in-game gold], or spend high-cost in-game resources [gems] to buy randomly presented glyphs. Thus, glyphs are “high-investment resources” that have high stored value (SV), while food/ore/gold are “low-investment resources” that have low stored value (because it does not take much to obtain).

  3. The Gear Rework (GR) converted all Mythic Lvl (ML) 45-50 items to the same post-conversion power level, regardless of their pre-conversion level. This was a great boost to all ML 45 items, because they ended up the same power level as ML 50 items, without having to spend the 10 glyphs that would have been necessary before the Gear Rework.

  4. Battle Scrolls: New dynamic in the GR that affects the stats of items in three categories: offensive (Weapons & Shields), defensive (Helm, Shoulders, Chest, Legs, Gloves, & Boots), and utility (Necklace, Belt, & Rings). Scrolls can be upgraded from Level 1 to Level 50. The higher the scroll level, the higher the stats of items within that specific category.

  5. During the GR conversion, scroll levels were set based on the highest-level gear piece in each scroll category, capped at each Hero’s Level. Thus, a scroll level was based both on the character level and the highest-level item within that scroll group. For example, a level 50 character would receive a level 50 Offensive Scroll (O-S) if their highest weapon level was 50, but would receive a level 45 O-S if their highest weapon level was 45.

  6. “Battle Scroll Beyond 1st” Items (BSB1 items): To obtain a Level 50 scroll for a particular category, players had to have at least one Level 50 item within that scroll category. Some players had more than 1 Level 50 item in a particular scroll category; for example, someone might have 5 items that are Mythic Level 50. I am defining “BSB1” items as all of a player’s Mythic Level 50 items in a particular scroll category that are above and beyond the 1st item required to obtain a Level 50 for that scroll category.

ANALYSIS:
The GR did some great things, including giving players a big power boost to their ML 45 items, and giving multiple characters an easy stat boost with advanced-level scrolls. However, consider the story of two players: Gamer #1 and Gamer #2 each have a ML 50 weapon, five ML 45 weapons, and six level 50 characters. Over one year, each player used gems (which took a lot of time to obtain) to buy 25 weapon glyphs, and each gamer spent 250€ real-world money to purchase another 25 weapon glyphs, which meant both gamers had 50 weapon glyphs the day before the GR announcement. However, post-conversion, they ended up with very different circumstances:

  • Gamer #1: Pre-conversion, they never used their 50 weapon glyphs. Thus, post-conversion they would have:

50 weapon glyphs
six ML 50 weapons
six level 50 characters with maxed-out battle scrolls

  • Gamer #2: One day before the GR announcement, they used their 50 glyphs to upgrade all 5 Mythic Level 45 weapons to Mythic 50 weapons. Thus, post-conversion they would have:

ZERO weapon glyphs
six ML 50 weapons
six level 50 characters with maxed-out battle scrolls

Post-conversion, both gamers end up with the same exact quality equipment (six ML 50 weapons) and characters, with one HUGE difference: Gamer #1 still has all 50 weapon glyphs, while Gamer #2 has ZERO weapon glyphs. All the time and money Gamer #2 invested into obtaining the 50 glyphs and investing them into five BSB1 weapons has now been translated/converted into ZERO in-game value post-Gear Rework. Gamer #1 still has all the stored value (time & money) that they invested into their high-investment resources (glyphs), while Gamer #2 no longer has any of that value. All the stored value that Gamer #2 moved from the glyphs to the BSB1 ML 50 weapons did not translate into any post-conversion benefit. It’s almost as if the value of using those glyphs has been vaporized.

Seen from another perspective, Gamer #1 got a boost to their ML 45 weapons, plus they still have 50 weapon glyphs to use for some future purpose. In contrast, Gamer #2 got a relative downgrade in their ML 50 weapons (because now they are equal in value to Gamer #1’s weapons), only now they will have to farm/labor for months and/or spend more money just to get back to where Gamer #1 is at. For example, Gamer #1 will be able to create a new character and use the 50 weapon glyphs to upgrade the weapon scroll months before Gamer #2, unless Gamer #2 farms/labors for months and/or spends more money just to get back to where Gamer #1 is at. That is loss of real-world value right there. It’s almost like Gamer #1 was rewarded, while Gamer #2 was punished.

In conclusion, for players that had more than one ML 50 BSB1 items, the Gear Rework (GR) vaporized the value of glyphs used to upgrade those BSB1 items from Lvl 45 to Lvl 50.

SUMMARY:
I invested time and money into obtaining high-investment resources (glyphs) in this game. With the exception of the glyphs used to upgrade the first Mythic Lvl 50 item in a given battle scroll group, the Gear Rework reduced to zero the value of all glyphs that upgraded my Mythic items from Lvl 45 to 50 . Thus, the Gear Rework essentially vaporized the value of a significant amount of time and money that I invested into this game. In simple logic, “I spent time or money on XYZ glyphs → I used XYZ glyphs to obtain ABC value → The Gear Rework translated the value of ABC to zero for me → The time/money I spent on XYZ is now worth zero.”

To be clear, I am NOT complaining about how unfair it was for people like Gamer #1 to have all mythic items get lvl 50 stats. Rather, I am pointing out that it’s unfair for the high-value of glyphs used to create BSB1 items to be translated to zero-value post-conversion.

This problem could easily be solved if the developers refund the glyphs related to the value I lost. By doing that, all value will remain intact.

A new season just began, and I would love to buy the Season Pass, just as I have purchased every other Season Pass that has been released (you can check my game account to confirm this). However, when developers can unilaterally vaporize the in-game value of resources that cost me time and/or money, I lose trust in a game’s basic mechanics of “spend time/money for XYZ resource to obtain ABC value”. Thus, unless the developers make a good faith gesture to restore the value of my lost glyphs, I guarantee I will never spend another dollar on this game again.

Never delete the value of a gamer’s invested time or money.


Edit: Corrected some typos and added a few words for clarity

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I’m hoping at some point soon I can change the title of this post to:
“Dear Developers: Thank you for returning the value of my money and time”

ONLY after which I would buy some crowns and purchase the season pass, LOL.

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@Switch made a great point in another discussion:

Development Team et al. (@Jeto @Kafka @Mother_Morgz), could we kindly get a response and rationale from the Developers regarding this problem?

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To the 505 Decision Makers and Communication Team (@Jeto, @Kafka, @Mother_Morgz):
With the exception of Season 3.0, I’ve purchased literally every single Season Pass that’s been released (see pics below). I’ve also purchased a variety of Battle Passes to obtain more glyphs, and I purchased a couple of the Steam Bundles. Suffice to say, I have definitely supported 505 Games financially. In light of this, could 505 kindly reciprocate the support by refunding the glyphs I lost in this Gear Rework? Or at least in the meantime provide some feedback on this topic? I would love to continue financially supporting you, but I can’t give you any more of my money - or time - until my trust is restored in how 505 Games handles the resources I obtain with my money and time.


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Hey Aeon,

Took some time to get around to this as you can imagine, with an update, a Season and a hotfix I have been kept busy - as always that doesn’t mean I haven’t read the new threads that have been appearing.

Firstly, we appreciate the time you have always taken to share really constructive and in-dpeth feedback!

As mentioned around the forum and in global chat, there are still more changes to come with the gear rework, and further changes and additions are being added in thanks to the great feedback the community has passed on. While that information is not quite yet ready to go out publicly yet, we hope the changes will address players’ feedback about upgrades, chest grind, drop rates etc.

In regard to the initial 3.0 update with the Gear rework and the transition from 2.5 Gear into 3.0 Gear and the introduction of Battle Scrolls, I can provide you some insight into our thought process -

As a baseline, we wanted no one to have a reduced relative power level after the transition, but we also felt that it was okay if players who had not maxed out all their Gear saw a lift.
This meant that, as a compromise, we chose to ignore the Glyph cost to upgrade Battle Scrolls, cos we completely understand that they are difficult to attain, and wanted to ensure that the community didn’t see any reduction in power going from 2.5 > 3.0.
The alternative would have been to match the cost (made difficult with rarities & levels). This then would have seen more players than not experience a drop (in some cases a significant drop) in power, and also likely not be able to afford the Battle Scroll upgrades.
Given the factors above, we still feel that the benefits of how this transition was set up in the end outweighed the negatives for the largest number of players.

Again as mentioned, your feedback has been shared with the team, and should there be any future changes to how gear is upgraded specifically this has all been included in part of my existing reports.

At this stage, there aren’t additional plans for further compensation for the existing Gear rework. I do not have any information on what would be the case in future with any additional changes that could come about.

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Hi @Jeto,

Thank you so much for the reply and details! I truly appreciate the time and thoughtfulness of the response. :smiley:

I think it’s great that the team wanted to make sure everyone benefited from the gear rework, particularly those that had not maxed out all their gear. When you describe the two choices that developers examined, it makes sense that the team chose this pathway since the benefits overall outweigh the negatives for the largest number of players. I totally agree with this… Out of Option A, Option B, …, and Option Z, the developers chose the option that had “the least negative value”.

But here’s the thing: This doesn’t have to be a “zero sum game”… The minority of the player base (i.e., people in my situation) doesn’t have to lose big in order for the majority of the player base to win big. The developers have already given a huge gift to the majority of the player base; however, it’s been at the cost of people like me losing the value of so many high-investment glyphs that cost us money and time. The beauty of the gear rework is that it wouldn’t be difficult to correct the “remaining negative value” that I’m experiencing - just refund my glyphs. So I ask: What would the developers - or other gamers - lose if the developers refund the glyphs that I lost?

Consider another example similar to my original post: There are three players, Gamer #1, Gamer #2, and Gamer #3. Each have a level 50 character, a ML 50 weapon, and five ML 45 weapons, and over one year each player spent money and time to acquire 50 weapon glyphs. The day before the gear rework announcement, each player decided to use their weapon glyphs in one of the following ways:

  • Gamer #1 decided to save the weapon glyphs for later use.
  • Gamer #2 decided to upgrade five Mythic Level 45 weapons to Mythic Level 50.
  • Gamer #3 decided to upgrade 12 Legendary 45 weapons to Mythic Level 45.

However, post-conversion, they ended up with very different circumstances:

Weapon Glyphs ML 50 Weapons
Gamer #1 ---------- 50 ---------- ---------- 6 ----------
Gamer #2 ---------- 0 ---------- ---------- 6 ----------
Gamer #3 ---------- 2 ---------- ---------- 18 ----------

While all three end up with a maxed-out offensive scroll for their Level 50 character, Gamer #2 loses out compared to Gamers #1 and #3 as follows:

  • Future Character Development: Gamer #1 kept their 50 weapon glyphs and ended up with 5 extra ML 50 weapons, placing them on par with Gamer #2’s weapons but ahead of Gamer #2 for future character development with the 50 weapon glyphs.
  • Versus Battles: Gamer #3 ends up with a MASSIVE amount of extra ML 50 weapons compared to Gamer #2, which will help in the Elite Tourney battles that require specific types and elements of weapons for competition entry.
  • Resource Preservation: All the time and money that Gamer #1 and #3 put into obtaining the 50 weapon glyphs has been preserved, albeit in different formats. All the time and money that Gamer #2 put into obtaining the 50 weapon glyphs has been lost because they chose to use/lose them in a way that ultimately had no lasting effect.

While it’s great that the developers gave such a huge gift to Gamers #1 and #3, why do the developers refuse to fix the negative that Gamer #2 experienced? It’s so easy - just give them back those glyphs so they’re back on par with Gamer #1.

In case it’s not obvious, I’m Gamer #2, LOL.

Once again, I appreciate your response @Jeto. I kindly and politely request that the team (@Jeto, @Kafka, @Mother_Morgz, et al.) consider these examples, and either grant the petition or provide a response to the bolded questions here. Thank you for your consideration.

@Jeto @Kafka @Mother_Morgz
As I’ve mentioned here, I’ve supported 505 Games with my time and money. I’ve purchased every season pass, purchased multiple quest passes, put hours of time into this game, and hours of time into this forum. Unfortunately, 505 Games has broken my trust, first by nerfing the special mechanics of costly Steam exclusive items, and most recently by vaporizing the value of resources that cost significant money and time to obtain (ML50 glyphs). Thankfully 505 kinda corrected the former problem, though it took almost a year of forum cajoling to get that outcome. However, how do I continue trusting developers that continue to devalue the money and time I put into their game, most recently by devaluing my glyphs?

For that reason, I’ve begun separating myself from this game. It’s tough to do so when I’ve invested so much time, money, and fun. However, gamers shouldn’t have to do what I’m doing here just to maintain the value of what they’ve acquired in-game with their time and money.

My first step to separate myself from PQ3 was to completely refrain from playing Season 3.0, which has been a real downer since I’ve enjoyed every season pass that’s been released. Today I took the next step to separate myself from PQ3 by uninstalling PQ3 from every device I have. Maybe by the end of the month, in order to fully leave this game behind, I’ll just have to delete my gear, characters, and account.

I still have hope that 505 Games will have a change of heart and restore the trustworthiness of the game’s money/time-investment mechanics by refunding the glyphs I’ve discussed in this thread. In that case, I’d love to come back and continue playing and supporting the game. Otherwise, I just can’t trust my time and money with 505 Games any longer. I’ll have to fully say, “Goodbye!”


@Sibelios I’m sad to say this, but I will most likely be resigning from Throne of Odin. I kindly request that the kingdom delay removing me until I have officially not met the weekly crest requirement. Hopefully before then, 505 Games will refund my glyphs and I can start playing again.

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