Try as I might, I still have yet to find a Relic from a dungeon since launch. I thought this might be an Early Access issue (I could never complete this Quest Pass by finding relics from Dungeons then either), but lo and behold, the issue continues to persist. I have found Relics in all sorts of places (adventuring in “the Shop” seems like the best place to find these prized items, or bartering with the bewitching Eveline) but alas, not from Dungeons.
I was thinking I was doing something wrong so I went and checked the information in the Dungeon rewards screen:
Sure enough, it does say that I have an “increased chance” to find certain Relics in each Dungeon. However, after continued efforts to run many, many Dungeons, I have found lots of the armor indicated, quite a few of the spells indicated, but I have never found a single Relic indicated.
Could you check your drop rates for Relics in Dungeons? I assume something must have happened at launch since Dungeons are supposed to be the most common place to find Relics and specific Relics have an increased chance of dropping from Dungeon Chests.
I can vouch that relics do drop in Dungeons. They are very rare drops though. Almost always the Rare relic. I might have seen a Epic relic once, twice at most ever. Have not seen any Legendary or Mythic relics drop.
As shown in Rob’s screenshot, if one appears then it will always be in the slot immediately after the gold (so always 2nd in the loot list). This suggests that the game is making a separate loot roll to see if “special” loot (relics, glyphs, crystals) appears. That said, anecdotally, the success roll needed to draw loot from that table seems to be a microscopically small target to hit. I’m skeptical that the odds are even as high as 1%. 0.5% (1 in 200 dungeon chests) feels like a better approximation of the odds of drawing anything off the special loot table for dungeons, and even that might still be too high of an number.
I know you’re being tongue-in-cheek with your sarcasm in this thread, but they technically are. Even if the drop rates in dungeons are as low as 0.1%, that is greater than the 0.0% chance found in other game modes. The devs can come out and say that relics are indeed most commonly found in Dungeons (assuming the Daily Challenge board is ignored and this assessment is made solely on chest drop rates).
Is this BS wordplay? Absolutely. Are the drop rates still garbage regardless ? Definitely.
Though, some of the Eveline changes in 1.0 take almost all of the pain of acquiring relics away, through Epic rarity. Obtaining Rare and Epic relics is now a nearly trivial affair from Eveline and pretty much makes irrelevant any real reason to actually attempt to farm them.
Cross referencing from another thread that has pretty much run its course, but has a relevant post to this discussion,
Now, if you really want something to be angry about at the devs that is current and relevant, argue about the ludicrous pricing of Eveline’s T3 and T4 relic functions. The changes the devs made to her in 1.0 for T1 and T2 relics vastly undercut Shop prices (for T2, she undercuts the new uber-VIP Epic relic bundle significantly). On the flip side, the changes for T3 and T4 relics are equivalent to a thimble full of water in attempting to quench a blazing inferno. While lowering the number of Eveline crystals for a T4 relic function is appreciated, in terms of cost the change is of minimal effect.
Coupled with the removal of T3 and T4 relics from the Quest Pass, players are almost all-but-forced to use the incredibly destructive Eveline T3 and T4 functions to gain these relics…
… unless the player decides to purchase the extremely convenient new VIP Legendary Pack where 3 T3 relics are sold in bulk for 800 Crowns and gets to bypass Eveline’s destructive functions.
… Mythic ascensions are almost impossible now as well… but look at that! The previously ignored VIP Mythic Bundle now offers FOUR Mythic relics for 2k Crowns. For the low, low price of $70 USD for 2 bundles (Eveline crystals for conversions and Glyphs not included), the player can now simply buy relics for the Mythic ascension of choice and fast track their way to the top of the game.
Frankly, locking down normal players from reaching high rarity gear tiers while simultaneously opening a bullet train expressway for those with very deep pockets is the more insulting offense.
Then words don’t matter. For someone who spends a lot of time typing a lot of words, you sure are amazing at ignoring the most important ones. THE QUEST SAYS THAT THEY ARE MOST COMMONLY FOUND IN DUNGEONS If you were to try to complete the quest by relying on Relics found in dungeons, then you would fail. EVERY TIME. So in the world of arbitrariness, where anything you say can be true, sure, make your case. You can’t pretend like the shop, and Eveline Crafting, and salvaging are not also part of the game then by the same token talk about how those elements are things players should use to accomplish goals in the game. The reality is the developers have chosen language that is functionally a lie. You will not complete this quest by finding Relics from Dungeons. Therefore, Relics (in order to complete the quest) are not found most commonly in Dungeons.
@Lyrian I’m being tongue-in-cheek in this thread to avoid being a straight up asshole about the fact that this is out-and-out lying. But you are just determined to work me over every gd thing. Stop coming into threads and being such a pedant.
So lying about how “normal players” can find Relics is totally ok because they used clever wordsmithing to obfuscate the fact that Relics are only findable in measurable amounts through shop purchases, Daily Challenges, and Eveline investment. But restricting those same players from finding any Relics beyond costly purchasable or upgrading means is “the more insulting offense”. It’s the same thing!! WTF!! The drop tables should include Relics of all Tiers which was my exact point back in Early Access when I was making this same case (and you were like, “Oh stop with this poor dead horse, developers do what they want”). Then players would find Relics that they don’t have to pay for, albeit at a slower rate. It’s two sides of the same coin. You are literally making the case that I have made both directly and indirectly for months. The fact that Eveline evolutions are more costly, maybe painfully so, does not detract from the fact that the language in the game tells us that Relics are found in dungeons and is functionally NOT TRUE. Finding Relics should be part of the “game” which is actually playing matches, defeating enemies, opening chests. Without that we are all just playing Daily Shopping. I said at the time that was ultimately bad for the game. Now that “farming” doesn’t even yield reasonable XP, it’s even more critical to have “jackpot” items in Chests to promote gameplay.
There, now I have made it explicit so even forum pedants like @Lyrian can understand.
Actually in all seriousness, given that the salvage rate of relic generation is displayed as 0.1%
Does that mean relics from dungeons MUST be higher that 0.1% (so perhaps 0.1001%)
BUT because you increase that gear salvage relic generation % by increasing the level of the item (I assume up to a maximum of 5% for a L50 Mythic item), that Dungeons would have to be above 5% to be the most common?
Or, no, you are thinking about this all wrong
There only needs to be 2 relics in a dungeon, to make it “Most Common”
Even if you were to take into account the chance to get a Relic via Salvage from an item dropped from a dungeon chest, you would be hard pressed to accrue 5 Relics in a 30-day period. Based on evidence we gathered back in early access, the likely drop rate via chests (ignoring salvage) is ~0.1%, so you would have to run 1,000 dungeons to get 1 relic, or 33 Dungeons / day (unrealistic daily total but for the sake of argument, doable). Let’s say that you salvage every item that you got from your 1,000 dungeon chests, which quite comes out to ~2 salvageable items / per chest (taking into account chest quality), or 2,000 salvageable items. Let’s be generous and say that your salvage rate is 0.3% (average item level of 3), then you would potentially get to 5 Relics via Salvage and Dungeon completion (bear in mind that the quality of the Relics via Salvage will be low)
By contrast, you can average about 30 Relics / month from Daily Challenges. You can average 15 Relics / month from Daily deals with just 1 refresh. You can purchase with coin and gems dozens of Relics / week from shop bundles. You can purchase up to 16 Relics / week via Event Marks. You can craft nearly 30 Relics / week via Eveline for a modest cost. All of these options take vastly less active game play time then farming Relics via Dungeon, even if you take into account Salvaging.
Relics via Dungeon is the least common way to actually collect Relics yet multiple elements of the game tout the availability of Relics via Dungeon as if its a viable method of collection.
Obviously the other issue is Relic quality (100 Tier 1 Relics don’t really matter all that much) but addressing Relic availability via drops should also include a Relic quality curve that means you could find the occasional Tier IV relic via Dungeon, just like you can craft the occasional Tier IV relic via Eveline, just like you can purchase the occasional Tier IV Relic via Marks, just like you get the occasional Tier IV Relic via Daily Challenges, etc.
I just want to quote each word and type yes after it. That would be poor board form, so I’m not going to do that. But you can imagine it in your head.
I will simply say, spot on. Right now, all meaningful progression is gated behind the shop. Some of us early adopters have gems, marks and eve crystals in storage. Yay? Pretending that relics come from dungeons is just whack. I have gotten a relic from a dungeon. But I’ve gotten 3x more from events. Fix the language, devs!
Thank you, Sibelios for raising this important issue. I have a hard time believing that Relic drops are currently working as intended.
I can certainly understand from a Design point of view went they want Legendary and Mythic gear upgrades to be hard to acquire (they are the reward for long-term engagement with the game) and that is fine. (We may see the availability of Legendary gear upgrades increase in the future as more content is added to the game).
But it doesn’t make sense for Rare and Epic relics to be so rare. Epic gear is essentially necessary to complete the story chapters. Not only does the current system make the monthly quest ridiculously difficult to complete … But it also makes constant use of Eveline essential to progress on a way that none of the other crafting NPC’s are. (E.g., Armor, Weapon or Accessory crafting can be fun if you have extra ore, but there are other ways to farm gear. For Eveline, there is no reasonable farming option that you could do to reduce your reliance on her)
You do know what will happen if you get your way on your argument, right? Surely, you have thought more than one step ahead on this? Well, in one of your later points, you might have actually done so.
I think you darn well know what would be the outcome.
And you know what?
puts on tin foil hat
I’m going to make another of my “famous” predictions that you just absolutely love.
I’m going to formally predict that you will get your way on this matter.
Why? Because the Eveline crafting changes in 1.0 for T1 and T2 relics result in them being functionally cheap enough to potentially make plausible such a change in dungeon relic drop rates.
Ignoring for the sake of simplicity input costs of minor materials, crafting time, and focusing only on premium resources:
The premium resource cost for Eveline to produce a T1 (Rare) relic of choice is zero.
The premium resource cost for Eveline to produce a T2 (Epic) relic of choice is 100 Gems (T1 → T2 upgrade cost).
There are no lost relics or premium resources consumed for converting an unwanted T1 or T2 relic to one of desired choice of the same rarity.
Because T1 and T2 relics can be produced without any artificial gating resources (such as Eveline crystals) and are only subject to restrictions of crafting time, these prices can be considered to be the new value of these relic resources as of version 1.0.
So, now let’s apply this information in terms of dungeon drop rates.
Cuing up a faux dev announcement ,
Greetings, Adventurers! After listening to your input about relic drop rates in dungeons, we agree and have decided to substantially increase relic drop rates in dungeons.
Behind the scenes, the distribution table is set up as 90% Rare, 9% Epic, 0.9% Legendary, 0.1% Mythic.
Using the values gem values for T1 and T2 relics, above, and T3 and T4 relics from @Sibelios 's Shop Talk threads (which to best of my knowledge is still accurate) because Eveline’s T3/T4 prices are only usable if a player processes very limited Eveline crystals, the expected gem value of a dropped relic from a dungeon can be calculated.
T1: 90% Chance * 0 Gems to Create = 0 Gem Value
T2: 9% Chance * 100 Gems to Create = 9 Gem Value
T3: 0.9% Chance * 1500 Gems to Purchase = 13.5 Gem Value
T4: 0.1% Chance * 4500 Gems to Purchase = 45 Gem Value
Total Expected Gem Value = 67.5 Gem Value
The question for the devs to balance would be a what an appropriate drop rate to warrant a 67.5 Gem drop from a dungeon chests. That’s on them to decide and balance between the chest rarity types and not necessary to go that far with further hypotheticals to illustrate the needed point here.
The point is that with the new reduced valuations for T1/T2 relics in version 1.0, the expected value of a relic drop from dungeon chests likely becomes low enough to actually become potentially feasible to implement if the devs choose to do so without significantly distorting the game economy as it currently exists.
In the end, this checks all of your boxes in your argument:
Would be fixed and now be a correct statement under your qualifications for correctness.
Currently debatable whether relics of all tiers are in dungeon loot tables because of very low drop rates as currently advertised, but this shouldn’t be a debatable issue any longer with the substantially boosted drop rates. I suppose that counts as fixed?
T3/T4 relics would be in the drop pool as jackpot items if they are not already there and with boosted relic drop rates should appear through sheer brute force attrition, so check there as well.
So, that’s pretty much everything you want, right? And I’m not disagreeing with any of this.
I guess you can take your victory lap now? Congrats?
That said… this won’t significantly change the state of the game at all from where it is now as of version 1.0. But, at least the devs’ claim that dungeons have the highest drop rates for relics will clearly become correct.
Thank you for the complement. Yes, I have worked in academia and Lyranica still does.
If you’re going to whisper sweet nothings to me, I’m going to start expecting a dinner and a movie.