@AeonNhiyr , this is certainly an example of someone losing ‘relative’ value due to the rework. I actually made similar upgrades within about a month of the announcement.
What do you feel is a fair way to handle this? (I have a half thought out idea, but would love to hear what you think as well.)
I think the points being made earlier are that the upgrade path that has been chosen by the Dev Team is very fair, creating no loss in value, but rather varying degrees of gain in value. With the “Shield as Accessory” change I feel like they shored up the last big issue.
I’m not the final authority on the matter, but I can answer some of your questions as I do have some advance knowledge of the incoming changes (which is why I’ve stayed out of this discussion until now).
The devs have taken considerable steps (as mentioned in the patch notes) to ensure that there are absolutely no nerfs to Mythic gear being carried over from 2.5. As close as they reasonably could (within 1-2% in either direction at most), all Mythic gear will carry over into the new system at Mythic +0 (aka Homing Tier 0) at their stat/attribute values at Mythic 50 in 2.5. Because of this, the grandfathered Mythic gear is the only exception to the rule in the patch notes that each gear piece drop in 3.0 is unique because the devs strove to match 2.5 Mythic 50 gear stats to their closest equivalent in 3.0.
From that point forward, you can then immediately hone (for mostly free) to Mythic +4, or in 2.5 terms Mythic 54. If you give back the Tier IV Relic refund, you can immediately raise each piece to Mythic +5 / Mythic 55. In addition, each Honing tier fractionally raises each Attribute point past +8 on top of the base stat for the gear piece, so Mythic gear right out of the gate in 3.0 will be significantly more powerful than Mythic 50 Gear in 2.5.
Yes, that does mean that Mythic 45 gear does get a free ride to Mythic 50 for the conversion, which kind of sucks for players with Mythic 50 gear beyond the first piece that qualifies for the relevant level 50 battle scroll. The tradeoff is that all of your alt characters that qualify for level 50 get free bumps of their gear to Epic 50 / Legendary 50, which is a significant boost for lower-level or trash-tier gear that allows players to be effective through sheer stat numbers on their gear (even if that gear is missing Attributes and the effect on gear pieces are weaker). This will enable farming capabilities on any level 50 class for at least level 60 or 70 dungeons through sheer stats alone.
Also, as a side perk, all gear in 3.0 drops at the effective level of one’s battle scrolls, so all drops out of chests will drop at level 50 (limited by rarity of that drop) for those characters, to equip them easier in 3.0.
Grandfathered Mythic gear all convert over to the new system at Attribute +8 and then raise further from there with each Honing level. I believe that the max Attribute level for grandfathered Mythic gear at Mythic+10 / Mythic 60 (subject to change in the final release) a little over +12 (fractional Attribute scores are a thing in 3.0). So, there is a LOT of room to grow over max 2.5 stats in the new system.
If I missed something, or someone wants additional clarification on a topic, I’ll keep an eye on this thread over the weekend.
I understand why you feel like you are being punished. (I’m VIP5 so I love you supported the game.)
While it feels like you are getting nerfed because others with only 1 level 50 in each category are getting a boost, your main build is staying the same all your level 45s are being boosted to level 50. It looks like some will be boosted to level 50 Mythic and some to level 50 Legendary. All of those items are getting a power boost. So you’re going to gain a lot of flexibility in my opinion.
Do I think you should get something a bit extra for having so many level 50 items, yes. Do I have any good ideas on how to do that, not really. The only thing I really thought of is every item over 45 should become level 50 + 1 honing level for every level over 45.
So I understand and hope you can look at the bright side of having 24+ items boosted.
@lyrian Thank you for the excellent explanation! Really appreciate the time and detail here!
This confirms two things for me:
The vast majority of this gear rework looks really awesome! I’m actually excited for this.
Regarding players with Mythic 50 gear beyond the first piece that qualifies for the relevant level 50 battle scroll… These players are going to have a lot of “high investment resources” get vaporized.
Again, those high investment resources are things like real-world money or TONS of gaming time, either of which are required for the glyphs required to upgrade from Lvl 45 to Lvl 50. It is not acceptable for players to lose the benefits of having used those high investment resources.
This reminds me of that time when Gozer asked Dr. Stantz, “Are you a god?” When Dr. Stantz mistakenly said “No?”, Gozer replied…
@Gamer_Dan_79 Where exactly did a developer say, “Wait, don’t upgrade your shields until I hear back from the team”? If I missed it, I wouldn’t fault someone else for missing it.
How is the crafting mythics going to work? Is it going to be like it is now where you have a 1% chance or will it be much easier after the patch? Also I really hate that all legendary gear is now basically dead end items with no real future going forward.
As it currently stands, I would consider it an example of losing ‘absolute’ value, because after the first Lvl 50 Mythic item, none of the high-investment resources used to upgrade other Lvl 50 Mythic items (in the same scroll category) will actually translate to any improvements beyond having kept the item as a Lvl 45 Mythic item. This means all that value is absolutely deleted, vaporized, gone.
I think there are a variety of ways to handle this:
Refund the glyphs used to upgrade any items from Mythic Lvl 45 to Lvl 50.
Refund the gems, crown, or honor used to upgrade items from Mythic Lvl 45 to Lvl 50.
Similar to what @Esoxnepa suggested, every item over 45 could receive +2 honing level for every level over 45. I think +2 honing level for each pre-conversion level over 45 is more appropriate, because again, high-investment resources were used pre-conversion.
Level 45 to 47 items could become “Sacred” Mythic, Level 48 to 49 items could become “Exalted” Mythic, and Level 50 items could become “Immortal” Mythic.
To note, none of the above suggestions will result in any players losing anything that has already been outlined in the original Gear Rework announcement.
Another concept that hasn’t received much discussion is the line in the update notes is that in 3.0, all gear is unique.
If you look at the Mythic bow Jeto posted in the OP,
How to interpret that readout:
The range on the right represent the possible values that stat/attribute could have rolled at.
The graph lines represent the actual roll for each stat/attribute. The numerical form of those graph lines are behind the pop-up window.
If you look closely, none of the green bars are even with each other. This is because each Attribute rolled with a different percentage value from each other. This is a huge change from 2.5, where every Mythic 50 version of a thing was exactly the same thing, outside of the color of the thing and the Attribute types themselves. In 3.0, every dropped gear piece has randomly rolled Attribute values as well as the base stat governing the gear piece itself.
So, the bow in question here has exceptionally high base damage (well over 2.5 Mythic 50), high dark mastery, and likely subpar Attributes to compensate. (Note: Higher Quality reduces the chances of subpar/deficient [compared to 2.5 Attribute scores] from appearing and/or boosts the chances of an outlier exceptionally strong stat/attribute appearing).
The only exception to this rule is grandfathered 2.5 Mythic Gear, with carry over with zero variation in stats because this concept did not exist pre 3.0.
Would a player accept a exceptionally high damage weapon with weak Attributes on it? Would a player accept a frail piece of Armor if it offered +11 base Attributes before Honing them even higher? There are a lot of possibilities for Gear in 3.0 that did not exist in 2.5.
Every Mythic you have will effectively be almost free, after the relic refund, to get to Honing Tier 5. Each tier after that will require 4 x T4 relics of the correct type (royal, dreamhold, etc.)
Also. I have 675 gear pieces in my vault with help from northelm. 600+ of them will be stuck where their at. Basically a waste of my resources which includes Shards, gems, ore, food, runes, glyphs(if legendary), for a long time the crystals I used w northelm to expand the vault now will be full of useless items until I’m lucky enough to get mythical, which I’m sure the drop rate will be terrible, because since the spellwork change chest drops have been trash for gear and minions and definitely much smaller food and ore drops. I would like compensation for that. I mean , that’s a lot I’m taking off the chin with my vault be massacred.Also ,all the time Ive played should be taken into consideration. I’m a level 8 VIP , but everyone should be entitled to resource compensation for “dead” gear.
It’s probably to late for this. Glyphs will need to have a use going forward. Would you be ok with a refund if you had to wait for a future update to use them?
And if food, honor, gold, etc. were used, should it come back in that form? This would be the most fair, but it seems like a rough job for the database dev to figure.
Honing is pretty much free up to level 5 (see the chart above), so this would not get you the value you are expecting.
This one is harder to tell.
All current Mythics will already convert to Sacred Mythics. This is part of the reason
I think the goal of the higher level Mythics is to supply items that are better than the current best (like AM spells), so direct conversion to the new best seems like a big ask and would ultimately lead to another group of players participating in the “if I had known” game.
I don’t have a great solution either.
My only idea was to give an “upgrade token” for each level 50 that will allow you to upgrade a legendary to mythic after the update is complete.
I can’t see the devs awarding bonus Honing levels as compensation, either. Especially as the first Mythic Honing level is being given away for free as compensation already. Mythic+5 items are already going to be more powerful than anything in the game currently, and going past that as a freebie pretty much wrecks most of the expansion level upgrades on Day 1. The power gap between players who have Mythic+5 gear on Day 1 and those without is already going to be very significant. I can already envision the complaints on the boards from players that can’t complete any longer against players with the new Mythic power levels after the update lands.
While I like the idea of the upgrade token, I’m super dubious that it is going to possible to implement post-update. That is because Rarity as an upgrade identifier doesn’t really exist any more. The label exists, but it is just there as a very quick visual identifier at the very broad approximate power level of an item with about the usefulness of the gear score number in general. That’s because Rarity has been replaced by Quality and there’s no way (at least in 3.0) to upgrade Base Quality (Honing awards Bonus Quality points and not Base Quality points).
If an item were to be “evolved” in 3.0, it would be the equivalent of adding points to Base Quality. How would the game handle that? Would it reroll the item and award new random stats allocated to the various stats/attributes based on the new Base Quality level? Would players be able to add points to the existing attributes (functionality I don’t think exists yet?) to reach a new higher Base Quality tier? Perhaps the database dev could make the game remember the stats and attributes of a thing and then reroll the value of those stats/attributes at the higher Base Quality level (that seems like a LOT of database dev time/coding compared to other possible solutions)?
All in all, the situation is a whole “moment in time” issue at the 3.0 update. The Glyph refund seems like the least painful route to pursue. But, it’s also been the one red line the devs do not appear to want to cross in this whole situation.
I think the “easiest” solutions would be one of the following, in order from easiest to hardest:
Refund the glyphs used to upgrade any items from Mythic Lvl 45 to Lvl 50.
Refund the gem value of glyphs used to upgrade any items from Mythic Lvl 45 to Lvl 50.
For every level above 45, refund 4 Mythic Runes and 4 Mythic Relics of that item.
If possible, refund the gems, crowns, honor, food, ore, etc. used to buy glyphs used to upgrade any items from Mythic Lvl 45 to Lvl 50.
While refunding glyphs is probably the main red line that devs don’t want crossed, I can assure everyone that the big red line many users don’t want crossed is having high-investment resources vaporized. I’ve been down this road before with the whole Steam Exclusive Items debacle. I’m not a fan of developers vaporizing resources/functionality that users “bought” with their money or time. I’m glad the developers eventually provided a solution to the Steam Exclusive Items debacle (9 months and many posts later). I’m hoping I won’t have spend the next year explaining and reminding developers why the gear rework (as currently implemented) vaporized boat loads of high-investment resources.
Because this time we are getting full value from them. In the spell rework only class specific glyphs counted towards the spell book and you could get spells downgraded in level. In the gear rework there will be no downgrades, so technically you have gotten full value of your glyphs.
This should also be the case for extra lvl 50 items. The gear rework will mean that each character needs 32 weapon glyphs, 96 armor glyphs and 72 accessory glyphs per character. So if the transition was “fair” and gave back all glyphs spent, only players with 224 weapon glyphs, 672 armor glyphs and 504 accessory to get the same result as having only the right 3 lvl 50 items in the current transition. That means that everyone with less glyphs spent than that will be getting full value from them and some extra free value.
The issue is that players with lots pf lvl 50 items will gain less additional value than players with just a few. That can be seen as a devaluation of their glyphs worth.
I do have 16 lvl 50 items and I couldn’t care less about this. I play Magic the Gathering and I know very well how much card prices can change in short amounts of time. Cards I purchased for 40€ now are worth 10€ due to constant reprint, for example. Do I blame Wizards of the Coast for this and ask for compensation?
I believe that any investment we do will always have a risk of being devaluated, so as long as it keeps working exactly as it was when I invested in it I will be happy. That is why I am not supporting any petition of compensation for this issue. But in the end it is not up to us to decide what will happen. We just give our opinions here, describe our issues and propose solutions we find fair. Which is great and I believe it helps a lot making the game better. Then it will be the devs who consider all of this and decide what would be the best to do.
I am glad to see we agree on this. My worry was that too many points were being raised on the bad aspects and too few on appreciating the good aspects of the rework. The devs seem to have learned from the spell rework mistakes, so I was frustrated that players were just focusing on the negative. I believe it is important to also acknowledge when good decisions have been made to motivate devs to keep on that path.
I won’t discuss the lvl 50 items point anymore because I believe there is no more need for that. Everyone has expressed their opinion on the issue in a clear and understandable way. Now is the turn of the devs to decide how to best address the issue.
Of course there wasn’t a clear statement like that, but in my experience in the forums devs acknowledging an issue is a clear sign that they will discuss doing something about it. I know of a few players that saw it and others careful enough that asked if they should wait or not.
While I understand the frustration of players that spent glyphs on leveling up an accessory when they had a high level shield, I am afraid we do have some responsibility on carefully managing our valuable resources when we know we cannot unspent them. How many times have we wasted resources, specially at the beginning of the game, due to being too hasty? Well, this time the devs have some responsibility too, of course, but don’t forget our own one too.
That said, if there is compensation great. I just hope that if the devs decide to compensate people with more than the required 3 lvl 50 items we won’t have players complaining that if they had known it earlier they would have invested on lvl 50 items instead of evolving mythics they may not use. Although seeing how the rework is developing it wouldn’t surprise me.
So in other words: if I currently have a Lvl 50 Guard’s Shield (for example) and so does someone else, with exactly the same attributes, then after the rework the “Quality” stats on these will still be identical and there will be no difference/variance in Power, Poison Starting Mana, Vitality etc.?
I was worried these “Quality” stats were going to be determined by RNG which wouldn’t exactly be fair.
