Let's discuss the current state of chests and drop rates

IMO, the power creep train has still not yet left the station, not after 3 months of live service (and upwards of 15 for us Early Access players). Power level limitations are the same today in 1.1.1 as they were in 0.34.

I’m expecting the power creep train to finally slowly start accelerating from an idle position in 1.2 via Kingdom rework incentives. These will likely appear as end-of-rainbow glyphs/relics that will only be obtainable (at least initially) by the most of active of guilds. Devs would still have plenty of train tracks left to travel before having to think about when to raise level caps to move power maximums forward, because Mythic ascensions will still block most players for a good while still.

Continuing to track Seasons Chests in the following thread, along with my most recent commets:

EDIT: one person messaged me and said they got 1x Red Gear. Do I hear 2!

I ended up being out sick a bunch last week unfortunately, so I’m just spending today running around catching up on everything. This thread is on my list and we already mentioned it to the team again this morning as I’ve asked some questions about drop rates.

I also want to take my time here and not rush my replies.

Sorry to hear that you were sick. Obviously I didn’t know; I only knew you had posted 3 days ago on Gems of War forums so I felt like this was being overlooked. I hope that you are feeling better soon. We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

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No probs, Sibelios, you couldn’t have known, and I know it was the worst timing for me to go awol. Murphy’s law!!!

Me too, oddly though that meant I needed less Gear and more shards to evolve the Gear to find the exact piece I was looking for, so I have a shard shortage rather than a Gear shortage.

Sibelios mentioned Shards are easy to farm in Skirmish, and you wouldn’t farm Dungeons if you were after Shards… Guess who plays Dungeons almost exclusively sheepishly raises hand I have very much been playing PQ3 for fun and less so on the maximising my progress side of things so I hadn’t even stopped to think about doing Skirmishes to get more shards. Needless to say, since that convo I’ve been playing more Skirmishes (although subsequently having less fun, so I stopped doing that again) :sweat_smile:

^ This 200% this. It’s less that we like doing it in increments and more a necessity for our live service games. Games that only launch once get more time to perfect all their systems before that one launch, whereas live service have to constantly update everything, we do our initial launch then as we get feedback and add new features or change things, the economy has to be rebalanced over time. You’re always on the ball with this stuff @Lyrian - if we introduce a change that seems incomplete or less than you want, it’s usually because of 2 reasons:

  1. We undershot so we could buff it later if we missed the mark (buffs are always better than nerfing it if we overshoot the mark on the balance)

  2. We have more changes around the corner to add more of the things/balance the current thing out more and something is just the start of what’s to come.

CX have made sure we put forward that re-rolling element and attributes is the big thing players want/need.

On a personal note, there’s not much I don’t agree with in this thread. I’ve also raised collecting Glyphs to be problematic and plan to again at a future point (no doubt, not too distant future).

Regarding the Shards vs Gear drop rate topic and how this recent change seems to roll things back to before we said we want to make Dungeons and Skirmishes more distinguished from each other in the chest drops, you’ve all got a point! I mentioned this to Sirrian and I know he was going to discuss it with the other Producers.

I don’t have the exact drop rates, but I did confirm that the drop rates haven’t reverted back to pre 0.38 (which I believe was the update we made the Dungeon chests drop more Gear and Skirmish drop more Shards). In other words, “less Gear in Dungeon chests” is still more Gear than the drop rates in 0.38’s update. Of course I can’t find the spot in the patch notes I’m thinking of right now but I’m sure it was between 0.36 and 0.38.

We were getting feedback that players wanted more Shards and Relics and the data we had from the game itself was definitely showing most players needed more Shards and less Gear.

I think the thing was that probably, from this discussion, more shards were wanted from Skirmishes rather than Dungeons and in retrospect I think we should have drilled down into that feedback more, which is definitely something we as a CX team will keep in mind in future when taking any feedback.

Having said all this, if there were a way to re-roll element and attributes on Gear, then we’d probably find we need less shards again.

We mentioned this topic again today to the team to give them a heads up we’ll have more questions for them throughout the week. Some of the team including Sirrian are in the office last and this week moving all our machines and getting the internet setup etc for the new office, so any updates I have from the team will come later in the week when they’re more available for these sorts of discussions and not AFK sorting out our new office.

If you have any further questions or comments in the meantime please yell out. I do think this is a good discussion.

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More gear dropped in dungeons because less Shards, it’s in the very patch notes I quoted to you. Here it is again for reference:

So “more Gear, less shards” were a part of this update to differentiate the game modes. That fact has been discussed quite a lot in game due to this change so why you would be expecting differently, I’m not sure. The recent QoL change which was described this way:

So Shards are added back and it expressly states that less gear is now provided. To requote you again:

So to reiterate, the reason that Dungeons now dropped more Gear (before the recent “QoL Fix”, was because Shards were removed in 0.38. Shards have been put back in so how can you say that the amount of Gear that drops is still better than either pre- or post-0.38. It can’t possibly be! Also, I’ve provided plenty of evidence in the other thread that Seasons chests are behaving differently and in fact the amount of Food/Ore seems to have increased so the combination of this + Shards reintroduced means that Gear is less present in these dungeons chests than ever before.

Please explain how its possible that Gear is somehow “still more Gear than the drop rate in 0.38’s update”. It’s not possible.

So again, you introduced a change to the behavior of something in the game and qualified it as a “Fix” and an “Improvement”. Please explain what you actually needed to fix? Clearly the ability to reroll Masteries or Attributes is not part of the thinking because you said it was something that was still being offered as feedback to the developers. Therefore the fix/improvement was supposedly driven by something else.

I believe it that players have been begging for Relics. But where are they begging for more shards? You all have made numerous changes to bump shard availability the last 6 months. Clearly Shards have now been increased yet again. I remember you telling me when I was doing the new player run through back in 0.36 and 0.37 that there were plenty of resources like Shards for players to improve their gear but they were just misunderstanding what to do and not improving their Gear Score fast enough. What’s changed? AND where’s the Relic increase? You say it exists but I’ve pointed to numerous times where it was said “Relics have been increased” but it’s never true. You are telling me that “the data you had from the game itself” was showing that most players needed more Shards, but the same data is not showing you that player after player is hitting a hard cap of epic gear with no ability to find the sufficient items to evolve them?

If there really are future changes that are affecting these half measures, why not mention them? Why is everything so obliquely referred to rather than being clear-throated about the changes?

Anyways, In my opinion nothing that players have brought up here was addressed in this response. Hopefully you will get more specific information that will actually be useful in understanding what is happening both in behavior of Seasons chests and the chest drop rates issue as a whole.

EDIT: Just to add, if players really do need more shards why not come into the game and talk about all the ways that shards are available? Why was it an information issue before (as I detailed above), but after several increases to Shards availability both in EA and in launch, it’s now an issue that necessitates even further shard intro- and even reintroduction? Feels very inconsistent.

Can we get some confirmation as to whether or not the relic drops are associated with level of chest or rarity of chest? I’ve completly stopped trying to farm relics because I’m not sure if its more of a quantity or quality thing, and I’d like to get rid of some of these keys without doing it the wrong way

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So, you have noticed that players are concerned about the change of color and attributes, as well as the “difference between chests in a skirmish and in a dungeon.” This is a good start.

What do you think of the lvl 40 vs lvl 100 chests? Will we ever be able to run low-level dungeons when we need Rare/Epic scrolls and runes? What about meaningful rewards for more challenging content? Lesser Shards are not what I expect to find in a level 100 chest.

What do you think of the Gold vs Diamond Chests? I cannot stress this enough. A chest that opens in 24 hours and has a rarer chance of spawning (10% diamond vs 30% gold) should always contain better loot, more loot, less food, and Rare+ gear/spells/minions (actually, can we place minions in skirmishes instead of dungeons? So we could farm skirmishes when we need minions/shards and farm dungeons for gear/spells/upgrade materials)

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Say the drop rate was 20% when 0.38 released, then it was increased to 29% later on, and then it was decreased to 24% - 24% is still higher than 20% (obviously these numbers are random ones I just made up as an example to illustrate what I meant in my last post and they aren’t the actual drop rates.)

We collect feedback from every source players can contact us including but not limited to:

  • This forum
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We don’t announce anything until the design is locked in. A lot changes during production so it’s important we do our best to only announce definite changes.

It’s a balancing act, we respond based on future design plans, player feedback and the game data. It requires tweaking over time. We’re not a release once and done game, these tweaks will be continuous over the life of the game - they should just become less frequent in nature over time depending on the features that we release that will effect the economy. We’ll never be done with the balance tweaks permanently as long as the game is live service releasing new features multiple times per year. We’re also in the first couple of months of the official version so we’re still gathering a lot of data and feedback. No doubt there will be less adjustments like this over time, just like in our other game Gems of War which is I believe almost 8 years old now. We barely do any drop rate changes over there any more unless we introduce a new currency/chest type for example, but that wasn’t always the case in the earlier days.

I’ll see what I can do. I want to get as much info as I can and not just give a yes or no.

@tau I’ve noted the feedback you mentioned about chests and the quality of the items they drop and including the Epic drops when you’re playing high level are non-existent which leaves that gap in your inventory where the “middle” items are the ones in short supply. These are good points. I suspect the epic item issue is one the team are already aware of as it should be showing clearly in the game data but I will follow up on it anyway.

Except of course that we don’t know any of the numbers and apparently you don’t either so the only part that I agree with is that the numbers are made up. I understand the concept of one number being larger than another and again, rather than dealing with my actual comments you chose instead to obfuscate the issue (injecting a second gear rate increase magically post 0.38 I might add). The part that is missing from your simple math example is that each chest clearly has slots in which certain items can be rolled. We know based on past evidence that Slot 1 is Gold, Slot 2 is generally Food/Ore, and then it gets more varied. So when you describe one drop rate of gear from Chests, its not that simple. But instead of your fake math, I and many others have been providing real examples of Chest behavior that is clearly different and less advantageous than before.

At this point there is little reason to continue this back and forth. Perhaps you will actually deal with the issues mentioned:

  • Persistent insistence that Relics rate in chests have increased with no evidence that is so
  • Clearly different behavior in Seasons Chests compared to regular chests of the same type
  • Clear lack of any improvement in the quality of items from Diamond chests despite repeated mentions that this would occur
  • Inability to convert shards, runes/scrolls, gear masteries, etc, therefore at the mercy of random drop rates that seem highly erratic relative to chest level

While we wait to not hear anything useful back from the Sirrian or the developers I will continue to enjoy piling up the mountain of Shards courtesy of my purchased Platinum Pass and contemplate how this entire experience can truly be described as Kafka-esque.

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So, to be clear about most players shard feedback - we aren’t asking for more shards, we are asking for a better distribution of the shards we receive (i.e. a way to target certain types of shards, allowing conversion, etc.).

Similar problems exist with runes. Nearly no player asks for more runes, rather for improving the way they are distributed (targeting/conversion/etc.).

And if I am understanding correctly that this change was done based on player feedback, why is the consistent player feedback that we are drowning in food constantly overlooked? It is very frustrating to get three stacks of food (which is already at cap) in a level 100 diamond chest.

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“The party developers told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears chest contents. It was their final, most essential command PQ3 gameplay advice.”

This actually got me thinking. I would guess this is an example of the difficult balance that the devs are trying to achieve.

People who post here are experienced and/or understand the mechanics of a F2P game. If you are patient, play the odds, understand the F2P mechanic, have joined a kingdom, etc shards are not a problem (and nor are food and ore which are increased in dungeon chests too). We are much happier the way things were. Especially when we are getting junk from the season chests.

People who are impatient, don’t fully understand the F2P mechanic, haven’t discovered they can exchange marks for shards, are always upgrading gear etc can be permanently needing 100’s of shards and feeling their progress is stifled by this. I guess these are the people that are complaining about the lack of shards. Maybe also they have been doing dungeons unaware that skirmishes give shards?

I’m not sure why the people who are active here and on discord are being punished because of the people that can’t manage their resources or aren’t doing skirmishes.

^ This!

Lyranica and I are the same way on this. I seriously don’t know what the “secret sauce” is with Dungeons that get us to play them for 60-90 minutes every night multiplayer, but we can’t stand even 10 minutes of running Skirmishes. (Ironically, we also both hate farming Explores in GoW for medals.)

Dungeons are the same as Skirmishes, only adding altars and the two boss mobs. It’s definitely not the altars. The bosses, then? That doesn’t feel right either.

So, what is the “secret sauce” that makes Dungeons enjoyable? It is the sense of purpose that high-value loot or big named-opponent encounters is supposed to appear in Dungeons, while Skirmishes are supposed to be generic random encounters? I’m not sure. I feel like there’s some intangible quality at play here that I can’t quite place my finger upon to explain this.

What do you think?

There’s a an additional motivation for players behind these requests.

Gear is rolling Attributes that make absolutely zero sense for them to have. For example, I ascended this weapon this week,

There’s no reason for a Fire-elemental wepaon to roll a Dark-elemental boost. That should be a Fire-element boost. Random Attributes are understandable, but illogical Attributes on Gear shouldn’t be even be a thing.

That said, in reality there’s going to need a lot of consideration needed around Attribute re-rolling. Elemental color shifting shouldn’t be too much of a gameplay issue, but I could see a lot of balancing problems arising out Attribute rerolling depending on how much flexibility the player gets on hand-picking the re-roll.

I’ve thought about something similar to a transmuting service would be cool, where a player might be able to sacrifice a Epic or higher piece of gear to transfer an Attribute on the sacrificed piece over to another piece of gear. Maybe possible as a type of premium currency follower service?

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At the end of the day, I’d be happy with the loss of stratification of chest contents from modes if we also had:

  • some reasonable use of Gold
  • some reasonable use of Food
  • some reasonable expectation of getting occasionally good drops from chests like a Glyph or Higher Tier Relic
  • alignment of -Pact and -Strike Attributes to Mastery
  • the ability to at least reroll mastery if nothing else
  • some exchange or downgrade ability to use higher tier shards/runes/scrolls for lower tier needs

Surely these things, which are all chest contents issues are just as requested as “more shards”.

This feels less meaningful now:

Apparently no one reads this anyway though. And of course we know that many things that you read in the game are not true anyways.

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I understand where you are coming from, but I frame it differently–gear is not gear until it is the desired color. Until then it is just RNG/salvage fodder. (This includes epic gear that is off color due to inventory restrictions.)

I have run dungeons almost exclusively and I hadn’t had a shortage of shards until recently. I attribute this to two things: the RNG hates me ㅋㅋ (I am up to about ten failed upgrades); and I have far less fodder to salvage.

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After having run quite a few more dungeons, I do not see any value in using resources (keys) to open dungeon chests of any rarity. I plan to fill my chest slots with ruby or diamond and junk the rest. I hesitate to say “salvage” because I don’t actually get anything for salvaging chests due to the cap on and zero plan for gold in the current game.

Ive been chronicling this in another thread but posting this here due to the blatant differences in results that have yet to be explained. This is a Seasonal Level 80 Ruby Chest opened today:

A typical Ruby Chest has 6 slots, the first of which is always Gold, and the 2nd of which is usually Food or Ore, but not always. The last couple of slots are typically items although recently that has also not been the case. In this example, 4 of the 5 eligible slots have rolled as Ore (the first slot is ignored as it is always Gold). I have contended repeatedly that there has been a change in the behavior of Seasonal chests in that more Ore and Food are showing up regularly than before. Is this a good result for a Ruby Chest? Ore is at least usable but it could have just as easily been 4x Food which for many players amounts to nothing.

How come things keep changing often to the disadvantage of the player and these changes are never mentioned? Also, these are chests which many players are paying a premium to access via the Gold or Platinum Pass, yet their contents are underwhelming relative to similar chests to which players have access with no restrictions (other than keys). Please offer some explanation.

Yet another Ruby Chest, same day:

4 of the 6 slots are Ore and Food. This is functionally the same as the other chest. No items, no Shards (supposedly more of these), etc.

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So it’s been two weeks and I was really hoping there would be some followup on this. There are a lot of open questions right now well beyond just the change to shards such as:

  • Apparent increase in food/ore in Dungeon chests, particularly Seasons Chests, which seems from my perspective to be a result of an apparent change to which items are eligible to rolled in which slot in Dungeon chests
  • No apparent increase in Relics seen despite yet another “increase”
  • Continued lack of visibility to rates on eligible items that can drop from what level chests and at what rarities (clearly this can be done as we can see an example of it in the Seasonal Caches)
  • The often times occurrence where a Diamond Chest has 7 loot rolls resulting in the equivalent of 2 Iron Chests, which is not a fair value given the time and rarity (going to the previous point, if we knew the chance to get certain things like epic or legendary items it could make the less quality contents more palatable?)
  • The often requested ability to upgrade/downgrade shards (if the feedback is that you need more shards, why was this not an option instead of just bloating up chests with more shards)

Anyways there have been lots of things brought up and supposedly some of these things would have been discussed (or not!), but instead all we got after two work weeks of wait is some price changes on Daily Deals.

Here’s hoping we are not back to the communication black hole yet again.

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I agree entirely. The actual progression and chest drop issues are continually ignored. Many new players never get the opportunity to really get into the game because they feel a “paywall”, and are unable to see a mechanic to get around it.

And what odd changes those were to the daily deals. While helpful, why were they in particular addressed?

Why wasnt the fact that mythic scrolls cost the same as a glyph addressed? One is readily availabile while the other is a mythical creature.

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